On Thursday (13th) a group of us met at Tesco's Costa for a cuppa and to review cafechurch over the past 6 months. There was a general concensus that this exciting new project has been well-received, offering a refreshing alternative to more 'traditional' forms of church, enabling folk to chat informally about a wide range of contemporary issues and to build friendships. Although we discussed the possibilities of moving to an alternative 'venue', we all agreed that continuing in a neutral, community environment would make it more accessible.Anyway, in our short time together a variety of interesting issues were raised, that we feel warrant further discussion. And what better place to do this than here on the blog! So here goes:
- Do you think cafechurch should be targeting a specific sector of the population? If so, how will this influence the topics covered, time/format of each event etc?
- How can we increase the profile of cafechurch within the community?
- What role does 'evangelism' have within contemporary culture?
- How should we best deal with the financial implications of running a cafechurch project: the fees, publicity and administration costs, and 'who' should actually pay for the refreshments at each event etc?
- In what ways can we raise the profile of prayer?
Your contributions to this discussion will be greatly appreciated, particularly as we prepare for more cafechurch events over the coming months. Thank you!
49 comments:
Thanks for starting this post, Jo. It'll be good to keep the discussion going, as I think we only really scratched the surface in the short time we had together the other night.
I looked round the table then and thought to myself that we really should be able to make CafeChurch work; a group of young, vibrant, clever people (well, we are!) should be well able to have a good bash at hosting a successful evangelistic event.
Cafe Church is an exciting and challenging venture which deserves our thought, time and effort. I think it would be good if everyone involved could give things a good think through and see what occurs to them.
I'm especially interested in the questions of the place for evangelism; the role of prayer and the place for church generally.
But my thoughts are as yet rather muddled; I'll certainly be back when they move in a more coherent direction! ;o)
Thanks for starting this up Jo, especially since I couldn't be at the meeting.
Here are my opinions...
Should we target a particular sector of the population? Personally I think yes we should and that sector should be people a bit like us. We are under-represented in mainline churches, and we should be able to bond more effectively with people in our own demographic. And that means that our themes/timings should be targeted there too.
Perhaps a different way of looking at this would be to ask what sort of person we are targeting in terms of their prior experience with church. We asked this question of SofaChurch a while back and defined three classes of people:
Type A - people who are spiritually interested but with little or no interest in regular church
Type B - people who are generally happy in regular churches but want something extra - challenge/friendship/creativity etc
Type C - people who have grown tired/sick of regular church for whatever reason.
As this is a more evangelistic venture we could also add Type D - people who have no prior interest who we want to 'convert'.
Should cafechurch target one of these groups above the rest?
How can we increase the profile? Not sure without paying for adverts. I guess it depends a bit on which group we are targeting, above. If it is groups B or C perhaps we can make more of an effort to get publicised in other churches.
What role does evangelism play in contemporary culture? I think that Jesus actively calls people to follow him, but that people often need the help of other followers to recognise him. Like John the baptist, we can assist this task by 'making a straight path for the Lord' and demolishing barriers that could get in their way, and one of those is not being able to identify God's voice and presence. I am however very aware of the distinct possibility of inoculating people with the gospel - being pushy and insensitive and putting people off the faith. I certainly have had enough of the altar-call type evangelism that relies on pressure and emotion and thinks that getting people to 'pray the prayer' is what defines success. I feel more comfortable helping people who have already begun to make hesitant steps to follow Jesus than trying to convince people to follow. Jesus does the calling, we help a bit.
Finances: don't know what to say, really. This is one of the implications of running the events in a relatively expensive venue.
Raising the profile of prayer: I'm not sure what this means really, or whether it is necessary. I do question the common assumption that intercessory prayer is the thing that success hinges on in these sort of events. Not to say that we don't need God's help, which of course we do, but do we need to spend a long time filling God in on what is going on, telling him what he should do and trying to twist his arm? (see Matthew 6v5-7) I worry that this sort of theology makes God too small and makes us the important ones in the equation, if success depends on how well and often we pray. Maybe that's just my problem though!
Having decided that, in the light of what the Bible says, we probably are called as Christians to evangelise (though personally I'd hate anyone telling me that I was missing something that they had already found), I think it's worth thinking about ways to do that with minimal offensiveness. CafeChurch seems to me to be as good a vehicle as we're going to get; it's accessible, cringe-free and relevant. But I do have some questions.
If church is a group of people sharing their lives and faith walks, is a once monthly hour long meeting ever going to become church? Are we hoping that people will feed into local churches? My concern here would be (and I apologise for the harshness of my assessments of our churches, but if I, as a Christian, find services boring, I can't imagine a newcomer coping too well) that the local churches on offer are unsuitable for being either too dull (St John's and Christ Church), too advanced (SofaChurch) or too legalistic (West Street).
It seems that most of the people attending CafeChurch meetings already attend church. It's very early days to be talking about successes and failures based on who attends the meetings (one Fresh Expression I know of consisted of the leader and his family for a whole year before it took off) so my issue isn't with that. I am wondering though about why as Sofa Churchers, we seems reluctant to invite friends along and wonder if this is an area worth exploring.
Might it also be worth making the leadership team smaller, so that it consists of people whose hearts and enthusiasm are entirely in the venture? I wonder if many of us are really keen to support CafeChurch and wish it well, but don't have the time/vision/passion for it that the leadership team needs to have. Perhaps there could be a smaller core group of those who are really committed, willing to meet together and pray regularly; those who perhaps aren't so committed elsewhere.
Eeek...lots of points raised in the comments already and my head is still spinning as to my own responses! But I'll do my best... here goes!
I still feel passionate about cafechurch as an opportunity to engage with the local community in a non-judgemental, non-threatening way: a chance to chat through topical issues, to share personal 'stories' and to simply deepen friendships. I feel that such a dialogue is something that has not really happened between the 'church' and surrounding community for a very long time, such that somehow we have lost touch and are out of step with how each other feels about things. For a large proportion of the population (and that includes many of us too!) 'traditional church' has little relevance or application to their lives yet at the same time many are aware of a very real 'spiritual dimension' that exists for them. Cafechurch, I believe, provides a means of opening up this dialogue, providing a forum in which a range of issues can be discussed and simply to enable folk to get to know each other better. If individuals decide to involve Jesus more in their lives then that is fantastic, but what is equally important is that they know that someone does indeed care about them, is interested in their fears, concerns and joys, and ultimately is prepared to spend time with them.
As far as 'evangelism' is concerned, I believe that ALL we are required to do is to love people, to truly listen and to be willing to share our own experiences when asked... full stop. Anything else is really between an individual and God, with our role sometimes being that of a 'companion' along the way. Like Andy, I remain very pessimistic about passionate 'altar calls' and emotionally charged pleas to recite particular 'repent/accept' prayers, and the damaging effects of insensitive, intellectual theorising. Relationships cultivated between an individual and God Himself, often independent of any external 'pressure', are usually more lasting and better able to cope with the very real and unique challenges of following Jesus anyway.
Like Suse I am puzzled that we are finding it so very hard to invite our friends along to cafechurch, particularly as we have taken such pains to ensure that the events are relatively painless and 'cringe' free!! Think we do need to challenge ourselves about why this is. How committed are we to engage in meaningful conversations with our friends, family, neighbours and work colleagues? Is God having such an amazing impact on our everyday lives that it is something we want to share with others?
Regarding the issue of prayer, I too am very guarded with regards the role of 'intercessory prayer': we have no 'right' to plead with God to bless what is already His work in the first place, nor that the relative success of a particular venture is dependent on how much time we spend on our knees! I believe very strongly that God is already moving ahead of us, preparing the way, touching people's lives, sorting out all the practicalities etc. However, somehow, we do need to acknowledge this and to demonstrate our own committment, passion and seriousness in seeing God move powerfully within this community, to change lives and for us to be used by Him to this end. And by demonstrating this committment, I really mean time spent with God seeking His guidance, wisdom, empowering, confidence etc and also so that we can deepen our own relationship with Him by learning to trust Him more! And, lets be honest here, as we continue with this cafechurch venture we sure need Him!!! I am interested to know how folk would like this to happen... maybe we could commit ourselves each day to praying for cafechurch, do a 'prayer walk' on a regular basis or something? All creative suggestions welcome! ;0)
That's enough of my pondering now... more to come I'm sure! ;0)
It's good to think some of these things through a bit, isn't it?
A few things that I've been wondering about since my last post...
* If SofaChurchers (who could afford to), committed to chipping in £5 or £10 a month, could we afford to host the evenings ourselves and be less of a burden on CC?
* Is the magazine-y, relatively light-weight format appropriate for our contemporaries (if that's who we're aiming at)?
* Would the meetings work better in the main Costa (or even in the Nantwich branch) to avoid the Tescos-striplights-night-out-in-a-supermarket feel? (Though parking and safety are both issues here perhaps)
* Is the format too repetitive or do we enjoy the familiarity?
* Do we feel the need to invite friends because we feel God is nudging us in that direction or because we want Cafe Church as a venture to succeed?
* Could the meetings be publicised regularly with adverts in local papers etc?
Oh gosh, challenging issues, Suse! Know exactly what you mean about the harsh over-head lighting and supermarket feel to the Tesco's Costa - not exactly the usual venue or ambience where I and my mates go for an evening. It is something we may need to think about - maybe a pub or winebar would be better! As to the magasine-y feel about the evenings , this may be pitched about right at the moment. As we settle into a regular rhythm in the months to come we may decide to raise the tempo a bit although we do actually have sofachurch satisfying this role in the meantime. Think the repetitive format is helpful for some, particularly those who like to know what is going to happen next. However i do hope that each month we can have variations within this ie different types of quiz, video footage etc. Just thoughts - really need to go to bed now zzzzzzz! TTFN
I suppose I was thinking that the pitch of SofaChurch is more appropriate for my toddler-mum friends (all uni-educated career girls) than Cafe Church, even though they're not church go-ers.
Perhaps Cafe Church is better suited to a different sort of person. Which may be why group members don't have friends to invite who fit that bill.
I know it's iffy getting into talking about class and education, but perhaps we need to when we're thinking about who we're aiming at and how the content and feel should reflect that.
How did the 'core group' idea grab you? A smaller group of people, perhaps handpicked by you, who you get the sense really support and 'get' the Cafe Church vision?
Ok, I'm back with you again... although I'm soooo hoping that others will feel able to join in with the discussion too! ;0)
Interesting point about the 'pitch' of Sofachurch vs cafechurch. Always considered that cafechurch was a slightly more 'gentle' approach while Sofachurch offered something more 'meaty'. Not sure this particularly relates to whether an individual is university educated, middle class or not though... some folk just prefer to have something lighter while others may want something a bit more intellectually stretching depending on their 'mood'. Isn't it wonder to simply have a choice and variety?!
Just want to go back too to another point Suse raised earlier:
* Do we feel the need to invite friends because we feel God is nudging us in that direction or because we want Cafe Church as a venture to succeed?
This to me seems such an important question to ask ourselves. It seems to hinge around the issues of God's 'nudging' and the term 'success'. Do we feel God is 'nudging' us to be more active in sharing our faith and the impact Jesus has had on our daily lives? Would cafechurch be a useful 'resource' for us in helping to interact with our friends on a deeper level and enabling us to explore spiritual issues in a non-threatening, non-judgmental way? Or do we require something altogether different? Are we aware of God 'nudging' us toward folk who are already searching or beginning their journey with Him? If so, what would be helpful for them? Do we consider that God is continuing to 'nudge' us in the direction of providing viable alternatives to more 'traditional' forms of church for those who feel disconnected in some way?
In terms of 'success', surely it is not really about how many come along but simply that it is meeting a need? If it is not meeting a need, then maybe it would be better to expend our energies elsewhere or in another direction. The important thing is that we are open and respond to God's 'nudging': aware that there are folk out there, amongst our friends, family and aquaintances, who are looking for something more, who are looking for Jesus Himself. And that we are willing to travel beside them and even to provide them with the means to find whatever they are looking for. Quite a challenge!!!
Thanks for your responses, Jo. I hope this discussion is proving helpful and doesn't feel that we're picking on you or your venture. I feel strongly that Christian events/magazines/services should be every bit as good as secular ones, and we know how much work and thinking goes into those.
I think we're getting somewhere. It sounds like you're confident that Cafe Church in its existing form has a lot of potential (which is handy, since you're the leader!)
Some weeks at Sofa Church no one will turn up or it will be very poorely attended, and it's tempting to think that it's no longer "successful". But Andy and I are confident that the format works, that, as you say about CC, it's meeting needs, and that's all we need to do: be there for anyone who wants to join us.
I'll shut up now, in the hope that someone different will chip in with their views...
Finally managed to sit sit in an effort to get my thoughts down! One of those summers I think!
Sorry I did not make it to the meeting- it was a punishment for E who had misbehaved and did not deserve to come at all!
My thoughts...
- it would be a shame to see cafe church end. I have been talking to people about it but what I have found with my research with Christ Church that there does seem to be an apathy with Crewe people. This certainly seems to be reflected in attendence.
- I think for me the time is an issue- its neither after kids bedtime or before and maybe thats something that keeps people away- would changing to the other costa be an option running at a different time?
- for those that come along it does seem to scratch an itch and certainly for those currently in church already its helpful and enjoyable. I wonder whether a target at local churches would help getting people from the churches along and then once they have been they will bring along others. I know we spoke about tagetting the churches together group and maybe we need to offer to go and do a church crawl and presentation in each of the churches during the service.
- the finance aspect is also a concern and I do not know the best way around this- how low would costa go down to so that as we achieve more and more that can be raised higher and higher.
- i dont like the idea of moving it to nantwich though- that would certainly hinder some "regulars" coming.
- rearding financial support from CC that and the whole discussion we are having needs to be discussed with Bill and CC - he may have a bright idea.
- regarding evangelism.. its so hard! I am more of a draw alongside, get to know and subtly talk about faith. I have never been an in your face person and think that natural works best. I'm sure others may disagree but half the battle is people knowing we are Christians and that we are "normal"- its certainly a battle that is similar to that of the label "vicars wife" people need to get to know me before they know my label!
- I also think there is a larger spiritual battle going on- I know I am certainly feeling it at the moment
I think thats all my ramblings for now- sorry if its a bit jumbled but E and A arrive home from holiday club in a second and the starving masses will want feeding!
That's funny, Emma. Andy and I were just taking about Cafe Church over lunch and came to very similar conclusions.
We both feel that Cafe Church is at it's strongest as a lovely relaxed social time, perhaps for people who are already 'churched' and familiar with the gospel message. Perhaps they already attend a church; perhaps they're on the edges of things or maybe they've had a bad experience that has put them off a bit. Cafe Church would be a fabulous place for Christians from all churches to get together, chew over issues and socialise.
I know personally, I've really enjoyed my little nights out at Costa getting together with you guys.
Really love the idea of doing presentations in local churches, Emma.
What do you think, Jo? (Though I know Andy's itching to chip in now with his latest brainwave...)
Suse and I were talking over lunch about what demographic might work best to target for cafechurch, in terms of prior church experience. (In my earlier post I mentioned 4 types called A-D).
I wonder if we would be best trying to 'target' people who are comfortable in church but want to broaden their horizons, and people on the edge of church and in danger of dropping off (types B + C) These are the people who make up most of SofaChurch's population. I suspect that the existing charismatic/evangelical churches might be better placed to cater for types A + D in any case; their lack of intellectual rigour is perhaps less important at that stage of faith than their energy and enthusiasm. I certainly followed that path initially.
I also like Emma's suggestion of taking a cafechurch 'roadshow' round to the existing churches. However, if it looks like we are trying to poach people from their church to ours I doubt we would be very warmly welcomed... Maybe having it called cafechurch would be a hindrance here, as it sounds we are a church in its own right.
How about... we reposition cafechurch as a cross-church networking group, a place to make friends across different congregations? We could possibly drop out of the cafechurch organisation, and just meet in Costa informally (ie in regular opening hours, and just pay for drinks normally). We could lose the name so it doesn't sound like we want people to switch to a new church (although they could always cross into SofaChurch...) It would solve a lot of the financial problems. We could still run a similar format for the sessions so that there is something to discuss rather than just being a networking event. It would still be a good place to invite friends outside the church to in order to get to meet other Christians. We would lose the publicity resources of cafechurch, but we could design that ourselves easily.
This might appeal to people who are getting cheesed off with their existing churches and looking for an exit. Might even appeal to some as a way to find dates...
Just throwing ideas around!
Just some quick comments....
If we change the timings of cafe church that would automatically limit who would come- it would have to be within or before 6pm to get a decent run... that, in the main, may exclude any who work. In some ways it would turn into a "mothers and baby" / retired peoples group- is this who we want to reach out to?
Christ Church, as part of a diocese initiative have been sending out questionaires and I know that talking in groups is great. I gave out about 20 questionauires at a lunch time concert we ran and all the people on the tables having lunch afterwards engaged in conversation- in the main these were all retired people so there is a place for something like that for those in that age group.
I suppose you also run into problems if its during the day with staffing and school runs for those staffing and attending. For maximum impact it needs to be evening time to allow more to come... think I have gone off the point a bit- what was I saying... oh yes in response to andys idea about fitting in cafe church around costas opening hours.
Further to the above post, I remember once before Kitty was born the manager of the Crewe Costa said that a mums and babies group was starting up there shortly, so they seem to be open to groups arranging meetings there. A group of teens from the Elim church in Nantwich meet their too I think.
We could also consider meeting in a pub, though that might be a barrier to the methodists!
Sorry Emma, I posted at the same time that you did so I hadn't had a chance to read your comments. Are you saying that you think we should target mums/retired people in the daytime, or working adults in the evening (even if that means that Costa might not be a suitable venue given their opening hours)?
I think that with the current team a daytime group would be fairly understaffed- I know I could not commit to a daytime group. But I am also not saying that an evening group and an alternative venue is the answer.
Thank you sooo much Emma for your contributions -so insightful as usual. Interesting that you state that retired folk appear to enjoy discussions - always felt that a cafechurch format would work well with this particular demographic. I heartily agree with all the points made by Andy and Suse aswell. Think we're really getting somewhere guys in mulling this over together. Thank you so much.
After the clear encouragements of Thursday's review meeting, I refuse to get disheartened about our vision for a secure, safe 'place' where folk can meet together free from judgment or exclusion; where they will be loved, accepted, respected and listened to; irrespective of where they are or where they have come from on 'life's journey'.
On the basis of the discussions then and on here, we are clearly being prompted to fine-tune the cafechurch 'vision' and to focus on a specific target group, realigning the time, venue, programme, name, leadership team, publicity needs accordingly. It may mean cutting ourselves free of all 'ties', including the cafechurch network, but this may not necessarily be a bad thing. But you're right, Andy, in doing so we may unleash all sorts of problems but, if there is a 'need' then maybe we should go for it.
What seems to be repeatedly hitting me on the head (ouch!) through all this intellectual theorising though, is where does our passion lie? Have we actually forgotten what this is really all about? Somehow we need to keep at the forefront of our minds that this is ultimately God's project and that He is seeking to make Himself vitally real to a particular group of people. And I think, if we're honest, we know who these people are now: its us and our contemporaries: the folk who share the same struggles and frustrations. God isn't expecting us to reach out to folk we don't know or have little contact with. He's wanting to touch our lives and that of our friends, family, colleagues - the very people He also cares passionately about.
All who go to Sofachurch and cafechurch have one thing in common: we want to thrash out what it truly means to have Jesus intimately involved in our lives and how this actually works day to day and within contemporary society. Think we are also looking for love, support, companionship and acceptance too, as we share our joys and struggles along the way. It appears that for many of us these needs are not being met within 'conventional' forms of 'church'... hence many are leaving, are struggling to hold on or have become totally disillusioned. I'm certain now that there are loads of folk out there who have similar needs as us. Interestingly, this was the basis on which SofaChurch was started in the first place: to connect with the 'dis'connected!
Cafechurch is really only an extension of this: a monthly opportunity to widen the 'net' so to speak. Maybe we have stretched it too wide though, or have been 'fishing' in the wrong place and with the wrong 'net'. (Sorry to use analogies, but I sometimes find them helpful...eek!) Or it could be that God is simply wanting cafechurch and SofaChurch to combine.
Whatever, I agree, Suse, that we need to ensure that whatever we do is carefully planned and thought-through to ensure that it is every bit as good as a 'secular' event. God only deserves the very best, after all.
My head is in a spin now... so will continue to think and pray about all this. Looking forward to reading more ideas.... all heartily welcome and appreciated for the 'cooking pot'!!!!
I'm not sure if this is particularly relevent at this point in the discussion but just felt I should include it here. It's not a cop out just a gentle reminder really. It's that verse in Phillipian 3:12 which encourages us to 'grab hold of that which Christ has already taken hold of'. He has already gone before us and has sifted through all our worries, concerns, practical issues and intellectual theorising (!!). He already knows where we should be going, what we should be doing, who we should be targeting because, after all, it is His project in the first place! Like our guide, as we travel up this particular steep 'mountain', He knows best where we should go and what route to take that best suits our abilities, strengths and resources. We need to watch Him carefully so we know exactly where to place our feet. Yet He stands there, holding out His arm to us. We don't need to jump to the next spot, launching ourselves over this wide chasm alone. We only need to reach up and grab hold of that strong, dependable arm so that He can lift us to the very spot He wants us to be, the very place He has already secured for us. Are we ready to grab hold?
As scary as breaking free sounds I dont think we should be scared of doing that.. we were only ever giving it a six month trial I think. The downfall is finding a venue. I suppose that will also depend upon the group of people who we are aiming towards. If it is the unchurched then the venue does need to be on neutral territory, but if we want to build up and encourage those already in church then would a non costa venue matter?
I know this is Gods project and he will lead us in the right place and to the right people and we just have to reach out but its hard to get complacent about the help we get.
There is always the need to run with an idea, review and then refine as neccesary in everything we do whatever the project so its important to sort that. I'm very aware that in a few weeks people will be expecting another session- where are we with that? Do we run with current format or refine in time for this.
Emma - I think that the neutral venue has strong advantages, not least of which is being different to SofaChurch. I think that the two could work very well in tandem. I wasn't suggesting that it should solely be for church-goers and hence that the venue doesn't matter. I would hope that a good non-churchy meeting in a public venue would be a good place to bring newcomers to. There is also the excitement of exploring the different dynamic of 'us going to them' rather than the opposite which churches normally use. I'm quite up for breaking free too; I love change... I wouldn't be able to help at all with a midweek daytime group, so that's not for me either.
Jo - I like the analogy of cafechurch as a way of widening sofachurch's net, I've often seen it that way. I also agree that following Jesus' lead is vital rather than rushing headfirst, following our own personal ideas and agendas. I'm sure you didn't mean to use the term it in a negative way, but I find that I often hear Jesus better through 'intellectual theorising' than through feelings and emotions - churning ideas over is a form of prayer for me. You are right to remind us that this debate is not simply a group of people trying to find a clever plan amongst themselves; we are a group of disciples. We need to be reflective about what we say and decide.
You mentioned that dropping out of the cafechurch network might unleash problems; what sort of things did you have in mind?
The over-riding concensus, at both the review meeting and on here, is that whatever we do it HAS to be in a 'neutral' venue. (And I think that gives us scope to do all sorts of things eg. mother and toddler, retired folk etc. Although given 'staffing' issues, maybe we are required to 'pass on' the cafechurch baton, in its current form, to other 'visionaries'... I don't know, just thoughts.) Like you, Andy, really like the idea of exploring the alternative dynamic of 'us going to them' too... soooo refreshing.
Was certainly not having a 'dig' about "intellectual theorising" or being intentionally negative. Its just that I was beginning to wonder, with all the 'brainstorming' and clever plan-making, that the discussion was becoming a bit cold and calculated, and I was fearful that God may get pushed out somehow. Sorry, you should know me by now, I'm all about passion, enthusiasm and harmony!!!!!
The potential for 'breaking free' is soooooo exciting. Have been feeling very uncomfortable about being shackled to both CC and the network. Not that their support hasn't been exceedingly helpful and appreciated, but I was beginning to find it quite restricting and stifling too. We really need to have the freedom to evolve in some way and to adapt ourselves to the people and situations we find ourselves. When I said that breaking free may cause problems, I was just summising that we may lose the 'credibility' that being part of the network gives us and potential publicity aswell.
What do folk think about meeting in a pub or something similar? It could potentially enable us to have a more 'flexible' time-limit and folk would be able to simply drop by when they were able. Wouldn't have any burdensome overheads either as folk could simply buy their own drinks or refreshments. To be honest, something sophisticated and chic, with subdued lighting etc will undoubtedly be far more appealing than a supermarket cafe in an evening!! But what do other folk think? Any ideas for possible venues in the Crewe/Nantwich area?
So are we going for 're-branding' then? If so, then we will need to give this very prayerful consideration, particularly as we think about the practical and staffing implications. This is all soooo exciting :0)
I need to think it through some more, but I think that the pub option could work really well. Its something that we could publicise freely in all of the local churches as a way of meeting like-minded people, should be newcomer friendly, and wouldn't have the current financial ties or overheads. I think we could design the publicity for it well, and we already have a seed-group of people. The flexible timing and better atmosphere are real bonuses too.
We'd have to think through how we ran the 'content' of the meetings if we wanted to keep a discussion theme; it probably wouldn't work to have a compere led structure with a microphone and PA like we do currently in a truly public venue. Possibly we could have a printed sheet with discussion points, quizzes, book quotes even, on the tables as discussion starters?
Oops... sorry, Emma, you raised some interesting questions and I haven't commented on them.
The review meeting on Thursday has sent us in a bit of 'spin' to be honest. The financial implications of hosting at Costa are still huge plus, with the potential outlay for new menus, programmes and posters etc, it may be better to 'hold fire' for a bit until we've decided where we're going with things. But what do other folk think?
Any 'rebranding', to encompass a new venue, programme and format, ready for 10 September would be miraculous to say the least!! A less rushed approach would probably be wiser, especially if we wish to ensure that we maintain high standards in all that we do.
Ofcourse if folk consider that we should run with what we've already got, say until Christmas, and relaunch ourselves in the New Year, then we could do that. Just very aware that folk are frustrated with its current form and may be keen to change as soon as possible. Also conscious that having a break may mean that we lose contact with those who already come along.
Eek! just about to press 'publish' when your comment popped up, Suse. Yes, yes, yes.... was thinking exactly on the same lines, including how to get folk talking/discussing. Gosh, when these 'creative juices' get going they really do flow!!!! ;0)
(Sorry - the comment two previous to this was written by me, not Suse - I left the webpage signed in in her name.)
I reckon we've got time to get something good together and launch on September 10th (we could possibly shift where it comes in the month to the 4th Thursday to buy some extra time). We could certainly get some publicity and discussion materials ready by then, and even if we don't have time to publicise it very widely we could just meet with a few of us for the first time to try out the format.
Suse and I couldn't resist brainstorming some potential names over dinner. We thought that it might be best to have a different name to SofaChurch to avoid confusion? Anyway after discounting 'Cheshire (Cheeses) Jesus' and anything to do with 'spirit' the best we could come up was Room at the Inn - a reminder of where Jesus started out on earth.
Phew that sounds like a much better 'time frame'. But will have to check it first though - know of one ex-missionary couple who are desperately keen to come along to cafechurch and they've just re-scheduled their big prayer meeting so that they are free on the 2nd Thurs... Big eek!
Me for real this time! (Did you really think I'd use the phrase, "truly public venue"? Tee hee)
I love this idea. It's really exciting. In fact, before we started SofaChurch we had thoughts about holding gatherings in a pub, so this all feels quite familiar.
But - I think now might be the time to sit back and see what we think God's saying about all this. We've thrashed ideas about and have reached a possible answer to most of our issues with Cafe Church. I think now might be the time to try and sense if it feels right with God.
But, that said, I agree with Andy that we could totally be ready for September. Or we could at least plan to have a meeting of the SC gang in the pub we have in mind to discuss ideas.
I guess finding a pub (and checking with the landlord that they don't mind a group of nice people regularly spending their money with them!) might be the next step. I think that the pub needs to be in Crewe itself. I know The Manor is one that some of the guys have met in before..?
It would need to have a car park and be safe after dark for girls on their own...
I'm probably running before I can walk here, so I'll stop tapping away for now. But just to add that I'm certain that we have enough media/creative/publicity savvy folk within the group to get something together very quickly if we felt it was the right thing to do.
Exciting.
Would elderly contacts come to a pub in an evening?
We need to be sure of any implications regarding the costa network and a conversation needs to happen with Hazel / Bill about all this too.
That's a good point. There's no reason why elderly folk should feel apprehensive about an evening in a pub, but I can see that the coffee shop option is a bit more 'them' somehow.
I guess this relates back to what G said at our meeting and in his mail about identifying our target audience. I don't know how that works however if our target is "everyone"!
Chatwins was mentioned at the meeting. But again, you've not got the nice 'night out' atmosphere in a shop like that.
I've just sat and read all of these comments (when I was supposed to be doing something else, there's never any time for proper discussion in the summer holidays!) and just wanted to post something so I can watch how the conversation develops, and promise to come back and say something more constructive later!
I'm goin to be away over the next few days so it may be difficult to keep up with this discussion. But please be assured that Andy and myself, as leaders of this project, are very aware of not offending folk, of keeping both personnel at CC, Costa and the cafechurch network 'in the loop'. So far no definite plans have been arranged or decided. Will be approaching several pubs and pub 'eateries' over the next few days though. Am hoping to send out questionaires too to ascertain opnions from folk likely to come along eg times, venues, appeal etc which will be mailed out in due course. As a professional 'marketeer' my Andy now has plenty to chew over in terms of re-branding and relaunch of this initiative. But keep those ideas coming as greatly appreciated. Volunteers for creating new materials etc plus other roles would be great too - if you would like to be part of this then do let us know. Big hugs to you all - off now for a long contemplative drive down south!
We'll be thinking of you. :o)
Ta, Suse! :o). For your interest pubs/eateries we're thinking of approaching so far are the Duke of Gloucester (near the Haslington roundabout and MMU) plus the Farmhouse and Rookery Wood (both Whitbread which is also linked to Costa). Planning an introduction letter for Managers to initiate meeting, so do let me know of other estalishments that are suitable and worth approaching. Cheers!
Well done Hassans - I think this is a good thing to pursue. I don't know the places you mentioned very well, Susie and I are thinking of doing a pub crawl now...
Other contenders could be the Manor on Nantwich Road, The Rising Sun on Middlewich Road, Woodside near Joey le Swan and the Cheshire Cheese on the way into Shavington.
OK, I'm back and will attempt to sum up my thoughts succinctly (due to the fact I still have no time!)
a) Cafechurch meets my needs beautifully. I love it in its current form but am aware of the financial issues which make it difficult to carry on. I will be very sad personally to see it go though.
b) Having said that, I love cafechurch as a punter, but find that I am struggling being on the leadership team - I don't have the time or energy to commit to it at the moment, and I know that is the same for everyone, but to be completely honest I don't have the passion for it either which makes my comment a) above seem a bit silly I know. I'm reticent to say 'please keep cafechurch in its current form' when I'm not prepared to do the necessary work involved.
c) I do think pub based Christian events can work really well and applaud such initiatives. But personally if it was in a pub I wouldn't want to come; evenings in the pub aren't part of my normal life and I feel far more comfortable in a coffee shop environment. That is a very personal preference though and I know I'm not a 'normal' thirty-something in that respect! But you're asking for people's views so those are mine! :-)
Good points helen.
Like you I enjoy the cafe church format- it suits me. To be honest an evening in a pub would not be my first choice- its not a place I like to be for my own personal issues. It would be a shame to loose it in costa I just wonder how we can get around the financial implications of staying in costa or has the discussion moved on from staying?
It's great to really thrash these thoughts out with everyone contributing. At the end of the day of course, it's J and A's 'baby' but I think there's value in us all putting our heads together.
I don't think anyone has settled on the pub idea, so I'm sure if it's not a good suggestion for everyone, other options will be considered.
Does anyone have any ideas for other options? I know Chatwins was mentioned at the meeting.
Or perhaps other ways that we can find the funds to keep it in Costa?
The other thing I meant to say, was it's great that we all enjoy the meetings in their current form, but if (for whatever reason) we're not happy inviting friends along and shoppers from Tesco's aren't dropping by, then it ends up just being a meeting for SofaChurchers at a different venue.
Which is fine if that's all we want it to be but not so useful as a tool for evangelism.
I'm not saying that I am dead set against it, but I think that Costa does have other drawbacks apart from the money. The Tesco's one doesn't have a very nice atmosphere with the striplighting and being inside a supermarket - its not a place that most people would make a special outing to I don't think. The town centre one doesn't have parking nearby, the area might be threatening after dark and would be even more expensive. Both have a very limiting time window - as Emma said earlier it clashes with kiddy bedtimes, and doesn't really allow much conversation to develop as we have to be out shortly after 7pm. Also, I think that if we are in Costa then we have to be a part of the cafechurch network, with its associated costs and limitations on what we can do.
Are there any late-opening coffee bars in the area?
Would dearly love it to stay in a coffee shop but, as Andy says, there seem to be few around here that are able to meet our genuine needs. Hence we've been looking at 'eateries' rather than pubs. Incidentally noticed this morning as I drove past Rookery Wood that they actually had a coffee area - interesting. Yes we'd thought about those pubs you mention too. Eek hope that all made sense - I'm typing this on my phone so can't read back what I've typed easily or write in paragraphs... Eek! Thanks so much for your honesty about things Helen & Emma - cafechurch (or whatever) is for ALL of us & I do so want folk to feel happy & comfortable with whatever is decided. Off to pick tomatoes now and runner beans! :o)
Let's try and establish exactly what we're after, then think about how we might get there...
Personally, I'd like:
* A cosy, atmospheric (public) venue that makes for a nice evening out.
* It'd be great if it was in Crewe.
* In an ideal world, it'd be cheap or free (though it might be that we're being challenged to put our money where our mouths are!)
* It'd be great if the team had complete control over things.
* I think, in essence, an evening get-together that's so relaxed and informal that it doesn't feel like a Christian meeting, but one where we can easily introduce our 'daytime' friends to our SofaChurch friends and meet other Christians in the Crewe area.
What would anyone else like to see? Of course, it may well be that the meeting is just fine in its current incarnation and we don't need to change a thing!
As we sit here mulling over a cuppa, just want to ask a bit of a contraversial and challenging question really... big eek! Are we at SC wanting a social event then or a 'friendly outreach' event?
The first would really only be an extension of what already happens at SC, such as the Sunday afternoon meets etc. Maybe the desire is for us to develop this aspect more.
However, if it is the latter this has additional implications for us, notably how willing are we to not only bring folk along to such events but also to engage with newcomers also? It may just be that folk don't really want to reach out to others right now, which is absolutely fine, BTW.
The reason I ask is that we really need to know how individuals stand on this aspect. Realistically we can't continue planning for a regular 'outreach' event if it isn't actually wanted and nobody comes! If, however, the concensus is that we are still wanting to reach out into the 'community', on the basis of either potential 'adaptations' already suggested OR keeping things the same, would we then be more keen, able and willing to invite our friends and engage with those who come along?
Answers to these questions seem pretty crucial as we prepare for the next step. Sorry guys - if you prefer to post anonymously on this, I would quite understand! But think we really need to be honest here.
xxx
Personally I think it has to be wider than a SofaChurch social, otherwise its not worth creating as a separate entity. I'd be up for inviting friends along to something if it was suitable, really good, and not 'evangelistic'. I have no problem engaging with newcomers.
I think that we need more numbers for this to work and to have a good dynamic, though, and I don't think that relying on our own contacts will be enough. I like the idea of setting it up primarily as a non-churchy get together for youngish local Christians, that we can advertise in all of the churches in the area. Then, hopefully once the numbers are good, people will naturally invite their friends along if they know that there is a big group of interesting people meeting up, and that would be a positive first experience of meeting Christians for them without feeling targeted or pressured.
I don't really like the idea of creating an 'outreach' event with the aim of 'converting' people we know. The journey of faith is a long term, subtle, mysterious thing. I don't think discrete evangelistic are very helpful.
Honesty - now there's a brave request! But it's a good one, as we need to say what we think, however uncomfortable things may get.
I differ in my ideas to Andy. (Though his ideas could work). I've made no secret of the fact that the whole 'trying to convert my friends' idea doesn't sit happily with me. As Jo knows, at one point I decided I couldn't be part of the planning group as it all felt so uncomfortable.
But I snuck back. And I think the reason is that I love Jo and Andy's enthusiasm and commitment to making Cafe Church work. I'm convinced that God loves it too. So I really really want it to work out.
I always hope that I'm evangelising very quietly with my day-to-day friends just by loving and by my actions. By inviting my depressed toddler mum friend round when she's crying on the phone. By remaining friendly and bright to the mum whose daughter tips Lego on Kitty's head. Maybe I'm copping out, I'm not sure.
But I think there's another route that Cafe Church could take that could work really well. How about we stay exactly as we are, meet in Tesco, under the Cafe Church banner, but look elsewhere for 'punters'? If a night out in Tesco wouldn't be up our sophisticated friends' streets, then who would it suit?
I can think of loads of people I come across, on the bus, in town, at the 3Cs... Those who don't quite 'fit' for whatever reason. Maybe someone who's homeless; or has learning difficulties; or just someone who finds themselves on the edge of things socially and is a bit lonely. There must be hundreds of people like that in Crewe. Widowers, pensioners, young people with nowhere to go...
We might need to think about financing this ourselves. Whatever amount a month that each individual supported can afford. £20. £3. Maybe we stop tithing and direct the money this way instead. Fundraising. Sponsors.
And as Jo hints at in her last post, we need to heft ourselves well and truly out of our comfort zones and actually *gasp* talk to these people. People we're a bit scared of. People who (ulp) might smell a bit.
The format for this audience is perfect as it is, not a single change necessary. We just need to get into the town centre with flyers, put posters in every shop, postcards on every coffee shop table, adverts in every paper and make sure people know when and where it's going on. Then all we can do is pray!
Andy just showed me this quote from Shane Claiborne; thought it was relevant (to my argument at least - so of course I couldn't resist pasting it on here!)
"I asked participants who claimed to be 'strong followers of Jesus' whether Jesus spent time with the poor. Nearly 80 percent said yes.
Later in the survey, I sneaked in another question, I asked this same group of strong followers whether they spent time with the poor, and less than 2 percent said they did.
I learned a powerful lesson: We can admire and worship Jesus without doing what he did. We can applaud what he preached and stood for without caring about the same things. We can adore his cross without taking up ours.
I had come to see that the great tragedy of the church is not that rich Christians do not care about the poor but that rich Christians do not know the poor."
We could promote the event at the YMCA, the Lady Verdin Trust, Christian Concern...
Another funding idea would be to approach Churches Together in Crewe and present the idea to them in the hope that some funds might be found. (Andy thinks too that we'd need drinks to be free or at least subsidised for this group.)
What does anyone think?
Finally I get round to posting - again thanks to a friend for lending me their internet!
I know I've emailed about this... But it's my view that we need to START with WHO it is we're trying to reach... You asked for honesty, so here goes...
I'm not really clear who Cafe Church is aimed at? Coz I think there's a real danger we end up hitting no-one.
My own view is that it isn't really something for church people as it's too short/too laidback to get into anything particularly resourceful
And I don't think it's the sort of thing that non-church people would just drop-in on... I think if non-church people were there, they'd be there for a coffee & be likely to leave if they knew a 'church meeting' however non churchy was taking place. In the same way, if I was in a pub & a Round Table meeting started up, I'd probably leave...
It's not something I'd be really that comfortable in inviting non-church people to, as like Emma, I think evangelism is a lot more subtle and personalised than often we think it is...
So I'm not sure where that leaves it?
I think it would be great to aim it at people who are our sort of age who are maybe in churches but struggling coz they might be the only ones their age and not realising how many of us there are out there - kind of encouraging them in a holistic way...
And maybe people who have dropped out of churches having found nothing that is scratching their itch. A great book on this is 'A churchless faith' by Alan Jamieson - AMAZING...
Venue-wise I think this needs to reflect who we're aiming it at (rather than choosing a venue then inviting people along)... And this leads me to either coffee shops (but during the day)- a problem for most people our age who work during the day or pubs (in the evening) - I can't really think of other venues where people described above find a natural place to be
I think we should think that God has made us as us - so the people we're mostly likely to reach are people like us!... I don't mean that in a restrictive way, more just a natural way
Hope this helps -excuse the waffling
Ok, we've read, cogitated and prayed through all the comments. ALL of which we agree with, incidentally. Cafechurch has been a useful 'learning exercise' and its interesting to think back too on our thoughts and discussion (also on the blog) before we embarked on this project back in November.
For Andy and myself, think we're going to fade into the background now and to potentially pass on the 'cafechurch' banner to folk outside the Sofachurch circle.
The ideas for a regular social meet, targeting a particular group of people and in a secular location, although fantastic, is not really for us at the moment.
Please do not think that this decision is in consequence of the comments made on here, as this on-line discussion has been exceedingly helpful and illuminating in many ways. As a family we are negotiating many changes in our lives right now, not least the prospect of spending less time in Crewe and more with our families. Think in many ways, this re-evaluation process has been very timely.
Thank you so very much for all your support with cafechurch.
Hugs xx
That is a pity, but I understand entirely. I felt the same way about SC:Girls: sometimes there's just too much other personal stuff going on, isn't there? You wind up feeling overloaded and that something's got to go.
I hope in the future when things calm down a bit on the family front, you'll want to take it up again. :o)
Hmmm, not so sure its that final, Suse. :0) Yes, we have got heaps of family stuff going on right now... most of which is completely overwhelming at times... but think we're just trying to be realistic: we simply HAVEN'T got either the time nor the energy to give right now.
As I wrote in my previous comment, this 'evaluation' process has been invaluable in clarifying thoughts and feelings, particularly as most of your comments echo our own. We've learnt a lot but ultimately the whole process has simply illuminated where our 'hearts' truly lie.
As your creative juices have been flowing, so have our own... unleashing 'dreams' and imaginings that have accompanied us on our long journey, skittering and dancing along the verges, to this particular point in time. Maybe it won't be too long before they can start to become a reality... but not now and not yet.... :0)
That sounds very intriguing!
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