Hi all. This post may sound incredibly scary, but please read on and don't be too frightened (yet!) These are nothing but very early tentative musings...I was just listening to Kitty's Disney album, and on it is a song I think from the Piglet's Big Movie, called A Few Good Friends. The lyrics keep 'nudging' at me in a way that sometimes things can do. This is making no sense at all, so I'll explain...
A few years back, Andy and I heard a guy at Greenbelt (I know, I know - enough with Greenbelt) called Tom Sine. He talked about ideas of Christians living in community. To sumarise his ideas (and completely butcher his book, Mustard Seed Versus McWorld) his thinking is that by sharing resources, people stand a better chance of affording housing, having more disposable income to be generous with and don't have to work every hour under the sun to pay huge mortgages leaving no time for voluntary work or fun. The other bonuses of the idea included shared childcare for families and more of a sense of family for singles.
I think the idea is that everyone sells their homes (if they have them), clubs together and buys either the land to build on, or an existing suitable building. Then each family/couple/individual has their own private flat with all the normal rooms in it, but there are areas for the group to share: a common room/lounge, laundry room, garden, veg plot, dining room etc. They might then decide to share use of cars/computers/garden equipment/babysitting services, have a rota for once a week communal meals or whatever they wanted.
I just wondered what everyone's initial reactions were. I'm not suggesting we do this (at least not formally - tee hee). Just putting the idea out there to see what your immediate reactions are.
Go on then - let's be having it. I tend to be quite an idealist, so do be honest and tell me if you think this is plain crazy, stupidly risky and would never, ever work in a million years...
27 comments:
Hmm, I'll look into this some more and do some reading, but from talking to a few folk, it seems that this sort of thing might only work in the States where land is more freely available to build on.
...with you on this Susie - but also as a reclusive type at times, adequate space to be away from the group is imperative.
OTOH, the only time I lived in a Christian community for a year at theological college was the most depressing, black, dehumanising and lonely year of my life...
Oh, totally agree about the space thing. We'd need our own homes, but somehow part of a bigger complex with shared bits when we're feeling sociable or lonely. The same with gardens I think too - a noisy, child-friendly one, as well as a quieter reflective dozing type space.
Still very much at the dreaming stage, but good to hear the idea's not entirely repellent!
Have been a bit of a Tom Sine fan since my mid-teens, after reading his first amazing book "The Mustard Seed Conspiracy". Also heard him at Greenbelt, but back in the 80s (eek.. that makes me feel sooooo old!)
Just loooooooove the range of ideas that Tom cites in his books, particularly the idea of pooling resources in order to live in a more self-supporting, environmentally-friendly way. Have known folk who have done just this, in order to establish a Christian-commune type thing here in the UK. Its certainly something we thought about being part of, back in our Uni days, when we were a lot more idealistic, enthusiastic and, some would say, naive! A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then though, and I think we're a little more cautious and realistic now. We are acutely aware of how much damage and hurt can be caused when things go 'wrong' but, when it does work, well its truly fab.
Seems that the key is 'compromise' and an acceptance of ALL, plus courage, humility, patience and bucket-loads of love... quite a task without God's enabling!!
Still at the 'dreaming stage' too, Suse. And also, like Tim, am a bit of a recluse so would find the whole thing quite a challenge! But completely with you... so lovely to be discussing it... isn't that the start of making it a reality?!
Has anyone visited the Iona community? Always fancied a visit cos what they have established there sounds really great...
Fantastic, Jo - I think you and I have a fair bit in common in our thinking.
With these things, I find that if it's the 'God' thing to do, the thoughts hang around and only get more intense somehow. It's almost a case of not having to do too much pushing as the ideas just don't go away. Very exciting stuff.
(Hey - perhaps we could make another of your dreams come true and all get narrow boats and join the river community. Or make my dreams come true and trade our houses in for camper vans and become gypsies!)
*IONA*... gazes wishfully into the distance...
SofaChurch trip anyone..?
*focuses again*
if visiting Iona, a few days on the island is recommended without going back to the mainland. It is said to let the place 'sink into you', which is something I so completely get.
Also to be recommend is visiting Iona is a boat trip out to see Fingal's Cave and the very impressive geology.
I pieced together a tour for this lady and UK and US members of her Druid Order. She has refered to me as the only reincarnated roman soldier she has ever liked!
Having constructed a detailed well researched itinerary for them, the economic climate knocked the tour on the head.
Had the tour happened, I would have been back from Iona last week...
Must visit. *BIG ITCH*
*Iona* gazes whistfully into the distance!! ;0) One day.... definitely yeeeeeeeeeeesssssss and following your guidance too, Tim!!! :0)
Hee hee, Suse, barges or indeed 'gypsy' caravans sound absolutely fab! Either way,they fit perfectly with a long-held desire to live contrary to commercialism and materialism, to return to a more simplistic way of life, reminiscent of a bygone era... sigh!
Incidentally one of the artist blogs I follow has done just that: sold up and is now living 'on wheels' in a lovingly-converted livestock lorry! She and her partner now travel 'nomad-like' around the UK selling their gorgeous artwork and sharing music. Must be idyllic at this time of the year but tough in the depths of winter! If you are interested, you can read more about her 'adventures on wheels' on www.intothehermitage.blogspot.com
Wow - she's really doing it, isn't she? I'm really not sure all our Ikea furniture would work in a rustic truck like that though.
Jo - can I ask what made you guys re-think when you considered the same thing a while back? (If it's not too personal - If you'd prefer, we can chat when I next see you.)
I'm thinking log cabins now. Sustainably forested wood, a pretty plot in the middle of nowhere, letting the homes blend into the scenery, nature all around us... *sigh*.
All that said, I'll still be stuck with the Poang, the P.S and the Lack. Not quite the reclaimed, scrubbed, back-to-nature antique look I was imagining, but there we are. ;o)
Do you know, the majority of SC folk I've spoken to about this idea seem pretty keen? How scary is that?
My next steps include reading up on communal living, as well as re-reading Tom Sine's books, contacting some friends of a friend who are also in the process of setting something up and looking into log cabins. Oh, and re-watching that Grand Designs episode where they build a housing association 'estate'.
I think Andy's hoping this is just me doing pie-in-the-sky thinking again, but what if it isn't? I was totally cheered by how, when talking to Colin about it the other day, he totally got the idea. If sensible, 'grown-up' guys like him can see the point, then maybe it's not so totally crazy after all, eh?
Who said we had 'rethought', Suse?!!! More like 'not yet, just wait!' Think any plans simply went 'on hold' when our kids came along: knowing that we weren't then in a position to practically 'do' something so radical, that we'd have to find a way of supporting them through University etc plus the continuing pressures and responsibilities we have towards our extended family. Bit 'lame' maybe but very real concerns all the same. Things are changing though... my illness realigned our perspectives somewhat, as Colin has clearly found too.
Quite funny that you have been thinking about log-cabins though. My childhood dreams of barges and gypsy caravans have long since metamorphosised into green oak treehouses in ancient woodland... reminiscent of the fab designs on www.blueforest.com Have been looking at small-holdings in Pembrokeshire for ages too, as the date for realising our 'dreams' gets steadily nearer. Andy longs to reawaken his aspirations, while at Agricultural College, to keep pigs and goats, plus chickens, ducks and growing our own veg. Have even considered doing courses at Reaseheath. But for the moment we have to concentrate on getting our kids thru their respective degrees and then...... freedom!!!
Amazing that so many folk in SC are mulling over the same things... just goes to show that if its an idea that the Lord has 'planted' in our heads then it is very likely to bear fruit! Exceedingly exciting!! Watch this space... sofachurch 'the room' then 'the village'!! ;0)
Even Andy had to admit those tree houses are pretty cool!
Wow. I'm so thrilled that you guys are thinking along the same lines and have already given it so much thought.
There's a big part of me that says it'd be very unlikely to work out as there'd be so much potential for disagreement and problems - we're all so different after all and most of us don't even know each other that well yet.
But there's another part of me that whispers, what if we're actually incredibly alike in the area that really matters - our shared experience of a God who's different from the one you 'meet' in conventional churches?
What if that common experience and belief in a generous and graceful God was the exact sort of strength a scheme like this would need to work out?
Blimey.
Think God's grace is really the ONLY way such a 'wild' collaborative scheme could actually work. It would be 'risky' whether we'd known each other for years or not cos, like you say, we are all unique individuals. But then that's exactly how God created us to be in the first place: to be unique but to live 'in relationship' too.. with Him and with each other. True, it would be incredibly challenging but, wow, through it we would learn soooo much aswell... even catch a glimpse of what heaven may be like one day, maybe!!!
Yes, those treehouses are fantastic aren't they? Could certainly see your IKEA furniture in one of them. Our leather sofas and oak furniture may be a bit of a challenge tho!!!! ;0)
Wow! It'd be just like living in the faraway tree.Do they have slippery slopes too? What a fantasticly fantastical fantasy website. x
Fantastic website there...
Q - how would you give an intrinsic Christian ethos to such an endeavour without making it 'in your face'? Or would you? Such things are more typically hippy / pagan / new age in origin.
Appreciate there may not yet be an answer for that one!
You may wish to research tipi valley in Pembrokeshire, and the Findhorn Foundation near Inverness (which I've visited) which may give you some ideas.
Andy was having a peek at a site about community living; looks like it might be interesting...
Diggers and DreamersA couple of thoughts/questions have occurred to us as we've been chatting it through. The first is the fact that living in a community would mean we wouldn't have neighbours. Anyone who knows Emily will know how much I value my neighbours - to be very cheesy, they really are good friends. I value the community element of the village here very highly. It would be a loss to lose those relationships with the folk I pass daily in the street.
Another thought that occurred to me, was that it's very easy for me to be generous with our home when it's not actually mine to give. I mean, I know it is technically, but I've not contributed a bean to its purchase; it's been Andy's hard work and wise decision making that has enabled us to end up living here.
Along similar lines, (and not wishing to cause offence to anyone) I wonder if the combined value of our homes would amount to the sort of sums we might need to comfortably house a group of people. I think that Tom Sine's books may have been suggesting that people of the generation above ours, the 'Baby Boomers', the ones who bought their property when housing was still affordable, might be the ones to downsize and help out the younger generation. I wonder if we're actually all living pretty modestly already.
A further thought (and I'm not sure about this one at all!) is the possible dilemma of how graceful this idea would need to end up being and if we're a/ up to such generosity and b/ called to do it.
What I'm thinking is, if Mr Bloggs has worked very hard for his money since graduating and lived very frugally since then, saving or giving away his money, is it 'fair' that he then ends up providing a home for Mr Jones, who has never worked full time for whatever reason or spent his money very lavishly.
I don't know if the 'Christian' response is to be generous to all without questioning it. I know the charity Christian Concern follow that principal, as they feel it's not about what anyone may or may not deserve, but more that as Christians we are called to just get on with it and be generous to everyone.
I know that God is ridiculously generous with his grace, and gives in a way that can sometimes seem unfair to us, perhaps in the manner of the older brother in the Prodigal Son story.
What do folk think about both these questions and Tim's one about Christian values? (Come on G - you're very quiet in all this - we know you're there...)
I had a quick look at possible sites/properties for sale currently in the area that would be potentially suitable for us each to have a separate house within a wider complex, and found this - a derelict farmhouse with attached barns with the crucial planning permission for conversion to residential use. It would provide 7-10 family homes with space for communal rooms too. The price? £1.3 million, before any renovation (the place is completely derelict). There lies the first big problem I can see; what we are talking about would require a huge amount of money - maybe £2 million all in. Even if ten families split this between them (£200,000 each for Susie's mathematical benefit) its still a lot of money, certainly more than our house is worth. This sort of scheme might be lovely, but it isn't cheap. There is a new-build green community housing scheme in Stroud, but the houses sell for £300,000 each - it doesn't seem to be a way to produce cheap housing.
Similar thing here in Bath.
Many of the co-housing schemes on the site Susie just mentioned rely on owning a huge house like this - I think that you need a very wealthy and generous benefactor to kick something like this off.
My other big reservation is that we already do live in a community - Shavington, in our case. I wonder if we should be more about engaging with and improving where we already are rather than withdrawing into an exclusive commune. We are called to be good news to others, not just ourselves. I was struck by this planned scheme by the JWs, whose stated aim is to 'to alleviate the need to use the outside world as much as possible'. I don't think we should want to move in that direction.
Another thought that I meant to put in my last post was that I know I have a tendency to think that "everything will be better when..." When I live here, when my body looks like this, when I'm confident enough to do that or when I own that thing. Just recently, I've been challenged by the words of another song, by Cheltenham band Bell Jar, 'Heaven is Beneath your Feet.'
If I took that idea seriously, really believed that everything I want I actually have here and now, would that stop me longing for another place/house/body/personality etc? Could it be that I'm so busy searching for some dreamy utopia that I'm missing what is right in front of me, here and now?
When we were trying for a baby (Kitty took over 2 years to make) I reached the point that I was getting so low and unhappy that I decided that I needed to decide to be content with what I had - a home, a husband, a cat, a garden, friends... I stuck the word 'blessed' up on the kitchen wall to remind me that baby or not, I actually had a heck of a lot of good stuff in my life that I wasn't appreciating because I was spending so long being miserable about being childless.
I suppose what I'm wondering is, is there a possibility that in dreaming of the perfect Christian community, we might miss the wonderful things that are happening right now? The very special friendships that are bursting into life all over the group and the sense of community and kindness that SofaChurch already experiences?
So, the idea is just that - an idea which remains romantically attractive - the reality of which is impractical and counter-productive?
...having explored the idea, the conclusion is "as you were"?
Nope - everyone should move to Shavington!
Seriously, there are many things we can do in the mean time to enhance our sense of community.
One example is SofaChurch:Share, our scheme for listing items and skills that we are prepared to offer to others on loan or as a gift. Can I encourage everyone to think about what they can offer to this, and also to look at the list regularly to see if there is anything that you could use yourself. It is an invitation only list for safety, so please let me know if you need an invite.
"So, the idea is just that - an idea..?"
Maybe, maybe not. Because sometimes things seem unlikely, but God makes a way, doesn't He? (Yuk - why am I unable to avoid speaking in Christian cliches?)
But for an idea to take shape, a good deal of discussion and thought must go into it. And there's not much point in trying to live more simply as a group if the project would actually be stressful and costly.
It could be that one day, one of us comes into some money and could afford to buy a plot of land on which the others could build. Or maybe one of our churches will need to close at some point, leaving a good space for some sort of a conversion.
Both unlikely scenarios, I admit, but you never know with God, do you? And it's still really good to discuss the idea and research it though, isn't it?
Goodness me, the conversation has moved on a-pace today!!! Very inspiring websites sited by you all, BTW!
Hmmm not gone off the idea yet,
Tim!! Great to simply think things thru and weigh up the multitude of options before deciding the next step.
For us, we cannnot feasibly 'sell-up' for about 6 years and, as our current situation is making quite clear at mo, we are still very much obligated to our extended family, not just our kids, so we have to move forwards very carefully and sensitively.
Not sure that 'living in community' means isolation from the outside world either... in fact, not sure I like that idea at all! Love being able to interact within a town/village setting too. Afterall we are meant to live 'in' the world as salt and light, not hide away!
I completely agree with the long list of 'considerations' you raise, Suse. They are the same ones we wrestled and continue to wrestle with now. To this I'd also add that we see our parents now having to use the equity stored up in their homes to support them through the later stages of retirement.... my Mum, for example is down-sizing yet again. I appreciate that, as Christians, God will supply our every need, but I think it would be foolish to not see that the monetary value of a potential 'home' could be part of this provision.
To be honest, the communities we have seen 'work' have been the result of a generous benefactor: either in providing a large building to use or land to build on. It breaks my heart seeing so many church buildings lying empty and unused, when there is so much potential to make them into a thriving 'relevant' community once again.
Maybe thats the challenge for us at SC: to create a community, here within Crewe, that isn't actually based on us living in close proximity but in offering an 'alternative way' of doing things. God is definitely challenging us to look outside the box and to see things differently in all areas of our lives.
All of us, I think, are really 'thirsty' and desirous of something fresh and 'new'. I'm reminded of the book of Jeremiah, with its imagery related to water supply and one verse in particular:
"My people have committed two sins: they have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water." (Jer 2:13) Not sure I really want to carry on digging 'cisterns' which are pretty rubbish and dry up when the heat is on. Think God is offering us a constant supply 'on tap' right now... the mystery is what form it will take!!!
*Thinking*.
I was thinking about parents earlier Jo, funny you should mention that. It occurred to me that we might, at some point in the future, need to move to a place where elderly parents could live with us and be cared for. Certainly another consideration when deciding on which direction to take with our plans.
What I have decided though is that we don't need a bigger house. It's a worldly voice that I'm constantly battling and it's blinkin' annoying; that sense of not being somehow good enough because we're living (reasonably) small.
It's very easy to slip into the thinking that this is what 'one' does in life: marry, buy a house, have kids, buy a bigger house, earn more money, go on holidays etc.
I guess we're at the point of stopping and thinking, "What are we actually about? What are we aiming for? Should it necessarily involve bigger, better, more..? Could it maybe involve helping someone else instead of just stashing up more booty for ourselves?"
(Says she with the Porsche-driving husband, but hey, I figured I've got my little curly-haired 'Porsche' and he does earn the money, so it's only fair to let him have his dream toy too... ;o))
Saw this on local news 'down south' about Steward Community Woodland which might interest some folk. *nods*
That's me decided: I'm moving in with Merlin and Beccy.
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