Folk may be interested to know that plans are repeatedly being considered to bring a SofaChurch style meeting to Christ Church in Crewe centre.Probably in tandem with a CafeChurch which will hopefully be held around the corner at Costa. Plans yet to be drawn up for sure, but the vicar keeps making encouraging noises about SofaChurch at Christ Church.
A few of us are hopefully on a CafeChurch training day in October, and after a couple more PCCs perhaps we'll be a step closer to knowing what and when (if you're interested, do shout, though places are limited and we're not even sure if the booking is successful yet).
If we go where people are and ensure the cultural trappings of our faith don't get in the way of them Knowing Jesus, The Faith has a bright future. Be encouraged.
SofaChurch at Christ Church I would hope to have a tag line to help differentiate it from the Mother SofaChurch. Linking in with Christ Church's railway history would be good, in my opinion; a few ideas below:
SofaChurch - Interchange
SofaChurch - Crewe Central
SofaChurch - Waiting Room
Anyway, so yes, there is hunger out there (and in here too). It's just getting palatable food where people need it which matters, and God Willing, we're getting much closer to doing what we ought to. Be encouraged.
24 comments:
All sounds great.
Can I ask a few logistical questions? I tried to find the answers online from an existing cafe church but failed.
When do the meetings at Costa Coffee take place - during the normal opening hours or after/before?
If outside of normal hours, do they provide staff or are we given the responsibility to open up, make drinks, lock up?
Will it force people to buy relatively expensive drinks/snacks, or does the mother church foot the bill?
Is there a problem with a spiritual group being tied up with a commercial company?
Yup, we have the same concerns and heaps of questions to ask too. Hopefully all with be revealed when we attend the training course in October. We're simply 'testing the waters' so to speak. Do check out the website at www.cafechurch.net though as it makes interesting reading.
Should anyone want to join Andy, Tim, Helen and myself then do let me know.
I think it sounds really great, commercial company or not. They do great drinks and goodies; I can imagine a church meeting there being really popular.
We met the manager the other day too (Kitty seems to be a bit of a stranger magnet) and he seems really nice. He's planning some regular parent and baby days there, so perhaps seems up for new initiatives.
I can imagine a church set up in the centre of town like that will be really popular... It's a well-known town centre location, people won't have that 'what will it be like?' fear of going into an unknown building, and above all, people know how to behave in a coffee shop, whereas in church, there might be a few concerns about what to do, when.
I think it sounds dead exciting.
The Methodist Circuit wanted to set up something similar in the centre of town a while back; it might be worth talking to David W, see if a collaboration might be possible? Also, Mandy offered her skills - well worth taking her up on, as she runs her own business and has lots of knowledge when it comes to catering-type matters. (As well as being passionate about a more youth-friendly church)
Helen and I listened to THIS PODCAST a few weeks back which was quite helpful.
A typical evening starts around 5pm IIRC, and lasts a couple hours. I don't know how much leeway there is to be different.
As to exactly how it would work with SofaChurch is also TBC. I think perhaps IF Cafe church happened earlier evening, then an open house SofaChurch around the corner following that could help work in bridging the gap between high street and church premises.
Advantage: happens all on the same night; organisation required for one night etc.
Disadvantage: could be a very long evening!
People could drop in on either as required or wished.
Lots of thinking and praying ahead, but I really believe it would work and is right.
We've been chatting over tea about the ideas. Andy's still concerned about linking the church with a corporation (would we be happy to be McChurch?). I'm more wondering how the two separate venues would work out... I wonder if focussing on one venue or the other might be simpler?
We didn't find the podcast or website very helpful, I'm afraid. I guess it just didn't answer the questions we have (although the website is very nicely designed, which makes a change for a Christian thing).
Tim, have you visited Taste and See at Kidsgrove? The Methodist church there have a coffee shop; they operate as a normal coffee shop during the day, but have services once a week in the evening. I only mention it because their meetings are more like normal church than SofaChurch - they have a talk, singing, prayer etc (but very good free coffee with it). I got the impression you and Jo would like CafeChurch to be more like church proper perhaps?
From the podcast, it seems the idea behind CafeChurch is to discuss issues informally. We wondered if the same question could be asked of them as we have been asking of SofaChurch - is it really church?
(would we be happy to be McChurch?).
I would. McDonalds receives more customers than the church. For children a trip to McDonalds = happy and fun. Is the same true for children and church?
There are some churches operating facilities linked to Asda etc too.
I think refusal to work with corporations would be tantamount to first century christians refusing to use the Roman infrastructure to spread the Gospel. It's where the people go, it's what they use.
I'm more wondering how the two separate venues would work out... I wonder if focussing on one venue or the other might be simpler?
One is fishing out of the harbour. The other one is harbourside. Too many church endeavours never actually push out from the understandably cosier confines of a church.
My understanding of this would be to 1) 'go out' fishing and then 2) to help bring the fish back in.
have you visited Taste and See at Kidsgrove?
Never heard of it! ;o)
I got the impression you and Jo would like CafeChurch to be more like church proper perhaps?
Not at all. (I think!). I think we're both wanting an authentically Christian ring to it and not be afraid of talking about Jesus, but as far from religious trappings and hymn sandwiches or a chorus buffet as possible.
is it really church?
Of course it is. It's church without being churchy. It's two or more being gathered in Christ's name. A community of believers. It the Ekklesia, a gathered community, however small of believers.
Such meetings can be in an end in themselves, or if people decide to adopt more churchy culture, then fine, it's a stepping stone to more traditional forms of what is church.
:o)
I do agree that we need to be out there where the 'fish' are... Andy's concern was that big corporations like McDonalds and Costa put smaller retailers out of business. Personally, I was delighted when Costa came to Crewe; before that, I was having a chelsea bun at the bakers!
I'm wondering where the worship element comes into things? I have the same wonderings about SofaChurch. I'd like to visit Church Without Walls, see how they handle the worship side of things. I've always rather enjoyed singing and prayer, especially praying for specific issues in people's lives. Having that opportunity to be open and say 'I'm not doing too well - will you pray for me?' and even (gasp) have folk lay hands on you, I think is really valuable and effective.
I'm wondering if both SofaChurch and the CafeChurch model are just a bit too cool: not really giving the opportunity for worship but not admitting they're just discussion groups either.
corporations like McDonalds and Costa put smaller retailers out of business
Indeed they do. But isn't that a Market Economy for you? Even if we disapprove of Big Guys, there's nothing that can be done to stop them humanly speaking. Did McDonalds and Costa have any real competition in their sector before they came to Crewe?
I'm wondering where the worship element comes into things?
Me too. I have ideas for possibilities. I think there may be space and opportunity for this to grow given time. It is needed, but as a pastoral care / sheep feeding mechanism.
Having that opportunity to be open and say 'I'm not doing too well - will you pray for me?' and even (gasp) have folk lay hands on you, I think is really valuable and effective.
Agreed agreed. See above.
I'm wondering if both SofaChurch and the CafeChurch model are just a bit too cool: not really giving the opportunity for worship but not admitting they're just discussion groups either.
You're not the first to have articulated that :o) But they are certainly scratching some itches I think. Work in progress.
We'll find out more about CafeChurch in October (keep pushing that door Jo... nothing like being a persistent irritating so and so to get what is needed!)
CafeChurch or not, SofaChurch will come to Christ Church I think.
Please feel free to disagree by the way :o)
Goodness, hadn't realised that there was such a lot of discussion going on...lol!!!
Hmmm, still not sure I want to make any rash decisions about CafeChurch until we've actually been on the course. I agree that the website and podcast are a bit vague and I'm keen to know quite how much we can 'push the bounderies' so to speak or whether we have to stick to an agreed 'formula'.
As to whether we want CafeChurch to be more like 'proper church'... goodness me, I hope not!!!! ;o) See it as being very like SofaChurch in many ways but held in 'neutral' territory ie NOT a church building. Also quite like the idea of tackling salient social issues from a biblical perspective, such as debt, parenting, self-image etc. The important thing is to build bridges into the Crewe community, providing us with more opportunities to talk about Jesus and His relevance to contemporary living. I love the idea of reaching out WITHIN the local community rather than expecting them to come to us or to 'fit in' to traditional ways of doing things!
Years ago I worked at a Coffee shop run by a lovely Christian couple down in Kent where Andy was at Uni. We were open during day but had monthly evening 'meetings' over a meal... again discussing salient topics from a Christian/Biblical persepctive. They were extremely popular with non-church goers and we always had a packed house... folk felt 'safe' within a neutral environment and without the pressures of it being linked to a particular 'church'.
As to the discussions here on worship, could we consider maybe having an #alternative worship' style session termly/monthly or something? I would love to see a multi-media, concert-type extraganza thing in the gardens at Christchurch during the summer months.... think it would look fab with the 'ruins' uplit and images projected on walls etc. Maybe it could be something we could do with Re-generation. Just a thought....
Ah, yes, we're having a good natter over here, Jo! Glad you've arrived, (especially since it's your thing!)
The concert-thing sounds wonderful - I'll point Chris (Re-Generation guy) in this direction, see if he wants to chip in...
The plans for CafeChurch sound great - discussion of current topics sounds really good, as do the alternative worship ideas. Might be a solution to that issue.
How about prayer? How do you think you can incorporate that without making newcomers uncomfortable?
I think given the current climate advice with debt and parenting would be hugely well received.
As worship stuff, I had thought of suggesting a monthly jamming session for those open to it(instruments and voices), for a few months' trial.
People bring their instruments along, and we have a couple hours play. Besides having a good laugh, learning more skills, more songs, we'd be developing possibly worship groups, and equipping ourselves to do open services and sessions much better. Perhaps once a month on a Sunday afternoon in Christ Church hall?
Get better at it, and in the meantime begin solving the logistical problems of doing open air stuff in Christ Church gardens and catering for mixed weather!
It all sounds really exciting. God's clearly very busy stirring up lots of 'alternative' ideas in our minds... look what you've started, Andy and Suse, a mini revolution!!!
Do think we have to keep in mind WHO all these different initiatives are for though. There could well be a distinct difference between what current Christians (ie. those who want something extra to current church setting, disillusioned etc) want and those that have no 'church' background at all, on a 'spiritual quest' or simply the inquisitive. Therefore such issues as prayer and worship, though salient to believers, may not be particularly relevant to others... initially, anyway...lol!!!
I read a book a while back discussing the 'changing face of the church to come' and the form that 'church' is likely to take in future generations. What was clear is that 'church' could well evolve into a very informal set-up, often involving small 'interest-specific' but mutually supportive groups, with the occasional big group gathering for a concert, worship-like event. Interesting...
I am so grateful for SofaChurch. It is wonderful to meet with such a lovely group of friends who simply want to get to know Jesus better and to explore His relevance within contemporary culture. It is clearly evolving into a group well-suited to the needs of those who come along. A 'plant' in the centre of town, such as "SofaChurch@Crewe Central" will probably follow a similar format, although it too will probably 'evolve' in time, developing its own unique character. However, CafeChurch appears to be quite a DIFFERENT initiative, different not only when compared to SofaChurch but also Coffee Shops run by churches too (both of which are pretty good at attracting Christians but find it more difficult to engage with other folk IMO). I hope that CafeChurch will enable us to take Jesus into the Crewe Community, get folk talking about Him and exploring His relevance to their lives. They may want to come along to SofaChurch or something more traditional at some point.. great, but that's not really what its about. Am just passionate about the ordinary folk of Crewe meeting Jesus and knowing how much He loves them and wants to be part of their lives!!
Think the music/'jamming session'/ worship group idea sounds fab, Tim. We'd certainly be interested especially now that my singing voice is coming back...used to be part of the worship group in West Street days... miss it heaps!!
In terms of making Christ Church's gardens more 'weather-proof' to facilitate outdoor gatherings, still think some form of sails/awninngs would be good. Certainly a lot cheaper than a roof...lol ;o) We had them at school... the covered quite a bit area and were great for keeping the kids dry and sun-safe too. Wouldn't distract from the interesting ambience created by the surrounding 'ruins' at Christ Church either and could have light/images projected on them.
I really like the idea of the alternative worship in the ruined part of the church - sounds great. Perhaps the two (?) SofaChurch congregations could join together for this every now and again.
Jo: "See it as being very like SofaChurch in many ways but held in 'neutral' territory ie NOT a church building."
This was the original vision back last spring; the Methodist circuit was looking into creating a coffee shop in the town centre (we didn't think of asking to use an existing one, and I don't think Costa was there then). It all proved to be too big a step, though, and SofaChurch was spun off as a quick, cheap, easy alternative - but making some compromises by being on church property. We saw SofaChurch as a means of testing the water, trying out alternative church, and possibly building a group of people who might go on to create something in a neutral venue in the future. So its very encouraging that this seems to be happening!
Tim - I'm formulating a response to the McDonalds / Asda provocation...!
I don't know if this is a bit of a mad idea, but how about having all of the meetings of SofaChurch Central outside in the ruined bit? That would be an interesting USP - the inside/outside church. I realise that I am typing this on a sunny summer day, but it might work too in the winter with suitable forethought - in Copenhagen there are a load of bars along the quayside that people sit outside at all year round, the bars provide heaters and blankets. It could be really atmospheric - worshipping God outside. It would make the goings on more visible to passers-by too.
...you could have a central campfire, or a fire-pit like this...
USP meaning?
I suggested using the outside of Christ Church for a carol service (even just two or three songs) at a staff meeting earlier this week, with a brazier on the go.
One member of staff said "It's the wrong time of year for that", which I still don't entirely understand the reasoning, and hope I wasn't too sarcastic in saying "The wrong time of year for a carol service?!". I didn't mean it that way!
Nice link, Andy. We'd have to think well about the health and safety issues of open fires and people moving around - but we manage with Christingle OK - so with a fire blanket, extinguisher, and adequate distance from the fire, it should be fine I think. (I'm health and safety officer at Christ Church, you know...)
Tim - I'm formulating a response to the McDonalds / Asda provocation...!
I await with interest :o) We all agree that big supermarkets eat up the small shops - but how many of us actually stop using them? I feel provoked in spirit about it indeed, but what can be done in real, effective, actual terms?
USP = unique selling point
Wow! That'd be really cool!! Absolutely love the idea of a central fire burning away, with folk huddled round with mugs of steaming cocoa and wearing woolly hats... sounds cosy and extremely atmospheric!
BTW, Tim, didn't understand the comments made at the staff meeting either... in my experience, folk always love a good traditional carol singing thing especially when it involves free mince-pies afterwards! ;o)
Returning temporarily to a previous thought about the church tying up with commercial companies...
Some companies are worse than others, perhaps the worst end typified by Wal-
Mart/Asda and McDonalds. Worse in many senses - they seem to embody values that Jesus and the Prophets rail against; poor conditions for their workers and the people who make goods for them, environmental damage (deforestation to make grazing land, etc), poor animal welfare standards, aggressive to competitors, promoting unhealthy food to children... the list continues. Not the kingdom of God.
In Jesus' time on earth the Roman empire was a similar ungodly presence, so I think that we can learn from how he interacted with it. I'm no expert, but this is my take on it. He didn't fight the empire, to the disappointment of many - he knew that his kingdom would win in the end, in its own subtle way. He seemed to encourage his followers to go along with the society (pay your taxes to Caesar...) but be ambivalent to it, to not absorb its values. Instead he called his followers to be subvertive - go along with things on your own terms, making it clear that you follow a higher way. The example of what to do when a Roman soldier asks you to carry his bag for a mile typifies this (Matthew 5). The early Christians used Roman ideas and terminology but in a subvertive way; the word 'good news' comes from the word euangelion which was originally used for Caesar's proclamations.
So, I think we have to be careful today who we join with. We are called to speak out for justice for the poor; I don't think we can align ourselves with an organisation who shamelessly exploit the poor. I don't think we can work with Asda or McDonalds.
Whether that means you boycot such places is up to you.
I realise that we are called to witness to people, and many people go to these places. But we are called to witness to something else, a better way, the kingdom of God. I think we have to be distinctive, not something tacked on to a corrupt body.
Now, what about Costa... I don't know much, but they don't seem nearly as bad; they have their Foundation to help the coffee pickers, they seem committed to community work. They are owned by former brewers Whitbread (I can see William Booth turning in his grave at that...) They are a huge chain that makes it hard for independent competition. The drinks and cakes are quite expensive; I hope it wouldn't mean that you had to be wealthy to partake, or that it inflated expectations of what a drink should cost, making poorer people feel inadequate.
In summary... I don't know! I can see that it makes sense on one level, but we have to ensure that our principles are not compromised.
We all agree that big supermarkets eat up the small shops - but how many of us actually stop using them?
Erm, Andy does actually. Perhaps he was too modest to say, but he's got us doing our weekly shop at Nantwich market. And he hasn't bought an un-fairly traded garment in over a year. I'm really impressed, as I certainly can't claim the same for myself, and if it was down to me, I'd take the convenience of Sainsbury's any day.
Big Corporations - corrupt. What evidence is there that they are corrupt? Enough to stand up in court, or if they found this blog and had words, enough to prove the point.
As for Fairtrade, I really struggle to believe Fairtrade is Fairtrade. I am very cynical about it, as human rights is all very trendy and very profitable indeed. Images and information can be manipulated.
I greet fairtrade marketing with the same suspicion I greet any marketing. I am being manipulated in order to purchase their product as opposed to a competitor's, at any cost.
I struggle to be convinced that x clothing or x coffee sold as fairtrade really makes a difference to those in the countries making them.
There's a lot of workers in between, all needing to be paid, and it all seems almost mythical to me. Ditto many charities. Commendable aspirations, but in reality achieves little. Or if it does, how much goes to the wages of the CEOs and high up bods?
Apologies for being Mr Post Modern, but I really am very distrusting of advertising and marketing or any big claims.
As for stopping using the supermarkets, we are decreasing our use of them, but financial needs and demands on time feature significantly in choices of where to shop.
As to whether or not to use corporations, perhaps play at their game taking the benefits they offer, but where documentable, say this is good but this is bad?
Big Corporations - corrupt. What evidence is there that they are corrupt? Enough to stand up in court, or if they found this blog and had words, enough to prove the point.
I've got lots of suggested reading/viewing matter for you... One online example is the "McLibel" court case where McDonalds served libel writs against two London Greenpeace activists who had published and distributed a pamphlet with some statements about the corporation. The judges picked through the evidence for 102 days, and while they found that the activists had insufficient evidence to support every claim and were therefore guilty of libel, they 'had shown that McDonald's "exploit children" with their advertising, falsely advertise their food as nutritious, risk the health of their long-term regular customers, are "culpably responsible" for cruelty to animals reared for their products, are "strongly antipathetic" to unions and pay their workers low wages.'
As for Fairtrade, I really struggle to believe Fairtrade is Fairtrade. I am very cynical about it, as human rights is all very trendy and very profitable indeed. Images and information can be manipulated. I greet fairtrade marketing with the same suspicion I greet any marketing. I am being manipulated in order to purchase their product as opposed to a competitor's, at any cost. I struggle to be convinced that x clothing or x coffee sold as fairtrade really makes a difference to those in the countries making them. There's a lot of workers in between, all needing to be paid, and it all seems almost mythical to me. Ditto many charities. Commendable aspirations, but in reality achieves little. Or if it does, how much goes to the wages of the CEOs and high up bods?
The Fairtrade Foundation is an independent non-profit making organisation (initially founded by CAFOD, Christian Aid, Oxfam, Traidcraft and the World Development Movement - fantastic to see so many Christian based organisations in that list). There are many, many safeguards.
Apologies for being Mr Post Modern, but I really am very distrusting of advertising and marketing or any big claims.
Fair enough - but there is a clear scriptural mandate here that workers deserve a fair wage (Jeremiah 22:13, Malachi 3:5 etc) and I don't think that scepticism is enough of an excuse to not try.
As for stopping using the supermarkets, we are decreasing our use of them, but financial needs and demands on time feature significantly in choices of where to shop.
I have found, having largely switched from supermarkets to normal markets and small local shops, that shopping in a supermarket costs quite a bit more in practice. Supermarkets have a list of a few 'KVI's - known value items, things which people know how much they are worth (eggs, milk, bread, beans etc.) Supermarkets push down the price of these, and shoppers think that the supermarket is good value. But they push up the price of the majority of the other items they sell, that most people don't really know the price of (how much is a pack of sausages worth? 99p? 3.99?). Time wise, I don't think there is much in it, supermarket shopping is perhaps 20 minutes quicker for us. The only time we use supermarkets now is when we have to do our food shopping at an unusual time when we miss normal Saturday opening hours.
I'm taking a step back from looking to drive this forward for the moment for a raft of reasons, so will watch how things develop.
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