(I thought I'd bump this interesting question up from a comment to a new post for everyone to think about.)Hi there all you sofa churchers. It's Mandy Wibberley from North Street church. Sorry I haven't been able to join you all since the birth of sofa church - sorry for me not for you all !!! You all seem to be having a great time both spiritually and socially. I'm a regular visitor to the website though and love it and what you're all doing.
With 3 teenage boys and a husband who works shifts, the time is just not there on Thursdays to join you. I have a drum lesson to attend just at the time you meet. Not for me you'll be relieved to hear, but with our 15 year old.
I'm also involved with the youth work and Re:Generation in our church. Re:Generation is at the other end of the scale to Sofa Church - loud band praise music, very modern, with a 21st century message. If any of you are interested, Andy can fill you in. He plays guitar with us sometimes.
It seems to some that the trend seems to be either one end of the scale or the other i.e Sofa Church or Re:Generation. We had 40 folk with us last time - some of those completely new to church. The middle bit, with the hymns and sermon - well what can I say ? Is it dying out or does it still have it's place, and if it does, for how long and for how many?
Well, sorry to go on, just wanted to stay in touch and to say I miss Sofa church. If the drum lessons change I will be with you again. keep up the good work and I will keep on visiting the sight with interest. Let me know what you think about "the middle bit" if you think it's relevent.
29 comments:
Yes, Mandy, completely agree that the 'traditional' form of church (ie Hymns and Sermon Sandwich!!)doesn't seem to be meeting the needs of many many folk. Subsequently a typical congregation largely consists of a few retired ladies!!! To be perfectly honest I'm finding it harder and harder to relate to what's going on too! However, it is sooooo exciting that we are increasingly seeing responses to this, often in the form of 'fresh expressions' of church. I can't help wondering if this generation is being challenged by God to consider 'new wine skins for new wine'!!
We are so sorry that you have been unable to join us in person at SofaChurch. But, given that you are a frequent visitor to the website, then you really are one of us!!! But similarly we would love to come along to Re:Generation as some point too, as it sounds really exciting.
On a practical note, several of us are exploring the possibility of setting up a Cafe Church in the centre of Crewe (hopefully linked to Costa Coffee)which will reflect a similar style to SofaChurch. So maybe we can liaise as to the best time to hold it, as I'm sure there are many other folk juggling family committments and shift patterns too.
Great to hear from you on here, Mand! Really interesting topic too - well started.
When we were looking for a new church to go to, we decided to try the two village churches, one one week and the other the next. Well, we didn't get further than the Methodist church, as they were so welcoming and friendly, that it was impossible not to go back. It was like being trapped in a spiders web of friendliness!
And it's that genuine warmth that I really value in our local 'middle bit'. I wouldn't be without the kindness and care of the folks at St Johns. If you'd told me a while back that most of our friends would be pensioners, I would have been pretty puzzled!
It did cross my mind after having Kitty that she might be happier in a livelier, more child-centered church, but I've since decided that I want her to grow up in a church where the people know her and love her.
Our Methodist Circuit is currently thinking about the theme 'Going for Growth', which I can see is a good plan as the middle bit (good phrase!) does seem to be dwindling. Which seems a shame to me, because at the end of the day it's not about music styles or charismatic leaders, it's got to be about love and genuine care for each other, which our 'middle bit' has in spades.
I think I'd be more interested to ask why people don't seem to feel the need for church anymore; why they don't appear to want that sense of community (or perhaps where else they're finding it).
What does everyone else think? Let's really thrash this one out some more...
Ey up there.
I think the problem tends to be what happens when Christians get together becomes more important than the getting together - whatever the tradition.
I am aware these are generalisations, but I believe them to be largely true.
So, for Sacramentalists, the focus becomes preparing for and receiving the bread (or wafer!) and wine (or blackcurrant!). Everything must serve this order.
For traditional Evangelicals, the focus is on the written Word of God. Long expository sermons. Everything must serve this order.
For Charismatics, the focus is on extended worship time with a view to generating a platform from which the Holy Spirit can work. Everything must serve this order.
Even for Alternative Worship, Everything must serve the order of the Alternative Worship.
What happened to just getting together, having all of the above in subservience to being the community of people relating to Christ?
The main problem is that the Service is a Dis-service to those who have to attend it.
Why does everyone dive for the tea, biscuits and chat at the end? Because what we're actually needing is the being together, caring, and talking God 'n' stuff, and making it accessible and welcoming to those not part of our own set up.
IMHO :o)
Tim. Also hungry for some community.
Wow, Mandy, thank you so much for introducing this interesting discussion thread.... been thinking about it all day...oops!!
Think what we're saying here is that we all long to be part of a 'community'. A community that simply accepts us for who we are and where our relationship with God is at that particular moment in time. Well said Tim, that the problems occur when this basic desire is superceded by having to conform to a particular format, dogma or set of ideas as the ONLY way of doing things.
Isn't it wonderful though that there is now an increasingly wider range of christian communities to choose from according to how one prefers to 'do' church, spanning all areas of the spectrum, rather than simply having a 'middle bit'. So indicitive of contemporary society that likes to pick and choose!! The challenge however is in identifying if there is a need NOT being 'covered' or a group of people that have somehow slipped through the net. I keep thinking of those who have left 'church' for whatever reason or who simply don't know what 'being' a Christian community is all about.
I think there is probably some choice differentiation on the grounds of age. As Jo said, and I have been struck by this as I travel around as a preacher in the circuit, most congregations are a handful of retired ladies. And they seem perfectly happy with the way things are. When we had the idea for SofaChurch Jesus' teaching on new and old wineskins really struck me. Not that new is 'better' than old, but if you mix them no-one is happy. Which is why we struck off and created a new wine skin, which seems to suit a certain 30s-40s age group better. Re:generation is targeted at a slightly younger age range perhaps; I certainly loved that style of church ten years ago.
As for what happens to the existing mainline middle, I'm not sure. If you continue the trend on twenty years, much of the current congregation will have further dwindled. But I'll be in my fifties then so maybe my tastes will have changed and I'll be pushing for hymns and sermons. Alternatively, maybe our by-then-not-Fresh-at-all Expressions can move into the mainstream, becoming the Sunday meeting in the main building, while Kitty's generation have their own new Fresh Expressions (that I won't really understand or like necessarily, but I hope that I support!) midweek or out the back...
So if we're all hungry for community and feel a real need for unconditional friendships with depth and meaning, why don't people outside the church seem to have the same need? I wonder what it is that's stopping them from coming to church.
I suspect they don't see the church as a place where that sense of acceptance can be found. Perhaps they expect to feel judged, not good enough and the pressure to change. Maybe they find a more accessible version of that sense of belonging at football matches, concerts, shopping centres, online in chat rooms or within their families.
The other week Andy preached at a church in Crewe, and his theme was 'Why aren't there more people in church?' As part of the question time, one lady said that her friend was a nurse and couldn't believe in God after seeing children suffering with leukemia.
Perhaps the concept of a loving God who lets such utter crap happen, is just too much for most people. I really don't blame them, either.
...which is such a shame as these people need to know and hold on to the promise that God is part-way through a process of restoring the world so that things like that will not happen any more. Without the knowledge of the coming kingdom many things in this life fail to make sense. And she needs to know that as a nurse she is helping to build this kingdom now in the midst of all of the rubbish.
I can't help but think that branches of the church that emphasise blessing and prosperity for us now poorly prepare people for difficult times - but that's for discussion this Thursday...
Another thought...
Do you think it's relevant that most Christians aren't winners in the world's eyes? That we realise we're weak, that we struggle on our own and therefore need each other (and God)? I'm not saying we're a bunch of losers (!) but for the most part, we'd admit we've all got issues, haven't we? (Okay, so maybe Andy hasn't, so I'm not sure how he snuck in...)
What I'm wondering is, perhaps people outside the church just don't need God in the same way, because they're playing a different game, the aims being success, prosperity and happiness.
Do you remember that kids' programme 'Raggy Dolls'? The title song had these lyrics:
"Don't be scared if you don't fit in,
Look who's in the reject bin!
It's the Raggy Dolls, Raggy Dolls,
Dolls like you and me.
So if you’re not at ease with your knobbly knees and your fingers are all thumbs,
Stand on your two left feet
and join our raggy doll chums!"
Perhaps we Christians are all raggy dolls and happy to admit that we're a mess and need help. Maybe to someone outside the church, admitting that is a really unappealing prospect. Admitting that you have needs that aren't being met and becoming vulnerable is scary.
There's a lovely quote in a Douglas Coupland book along the same lines - I love that he says his need for God is a secret, as if it's somehow shameful:
"My secret is that I need God - that I am sick and can no longer make it alone. I need God to help me give, because I no longer seem capable of giving; to help me to be kind, as I no longer seem capable of kindness; to help me love, as I seem beyond able to love." (Life After God)
That's interesting Suse; what you say strikes a chord with me. Today's society is very much geared up to people being in control of their own lives; not admitting they even need anyone else human to solve their problems for them, let alone God! I come across a lot of people with 'issues' as you put it, who are convinced they can overcome them by themselves without outside help, and often they find it doesn't work, or works only on a temporary basis.
Admitting vulnerability and asking for help just Isn't Done, is it?
As someone who has attended a Hymn Sandwich type service for the majority of my life, I can't say I find it easy to relate to either! I go along, always enjoying the singing (because hymns are 'my thing'!) sometimes get a lot from the sermon, sometimes get nothing from it, usually somewhere in between. But what I yearn for is what we are all saying - more REAL relationships with fellow seekers of Jesus; conversations, both serious and trivial, but real conversations where everyone has something valid to say and everyone listens to everyone else.
I hope that Sofachurch continues to work along those lines, and that cafechurch will do similar!
I'll be watching the rest of this discussion with great interest. :-)
I wonder what it is that's stopping them from coming to church...
perhaps most of them get community elsewhere? At the football ground, at the pub? The inward bickerings of the Body of Christ? Cultural trappings of the church of four hundred years, which unless you're already 'in' mean nothing to you?
In response to Susie and Helen's comments about lives being in a mess and needing help etc. I do think folk are admitting more than ever that they can't solve things on their own. The internet is full of chatrooms of different types offering mutual support and guidance... from dieting to parenting to global warming!!! let alone the demand for counselling, therapies etc. Think people are under even more pressure these days to conform to some cultural 'ideal' and therefore become increasingly aware of how much they actually fall short of it. Even tv programmes are full of ways to make you look better, dress better, eat better, live better, parent better etc. Folk simply don't look to the church/God as their first port of call anymore.
Why is this, I wonder? Is it because we are not really addressing the real issues... the things that folk are interested in and concern them? Or is it because folk have a warped impression about what following Jesus is really all about? Prosperity teaching, archaic religeous piety, theological squabbles etc. doesn't exactly help!!! Is it simply a case that folk want the 'wine' but don't like the packaging?
Certainly 'the middle bit' hasn't really met our needs as a family for years... we just love Jesus and people and, although there are good times, we struggle with things a hec of a lot as we bumble along. I'm sure we're not alone in simply wanting to have true companionship and mutual support with fellow 'strugglers' as we progress through life's journey!!!
Yeah, I think you're right Jo - a lot of what people associate with church isn't great and you can't really blame them for not wanting to get caught up in it.
A few years ago I had what I call my 'post-evangelical crash'. The trappings of Christianity just all got too much - the guilt, the Bible reading, the Quiet Time, the should-do-betters, the being nice and happy, the going to Spring Harvest, not accepting gay people, not accepting women leaders, not wearing sexy clothes, listening to bad Christian music, feeling I had to know the answers when people asked tricky questions, the constant 'going against the flow'...
I let it all crash to the ground and took a year out, living by my own rules, completely free of all that claustrophobic church stuff. After a year of living like a normal person, I missed God and decided I'd pick a few select pieces up again - but not all the periphery rubbish this time. Just the heart of it all - the belief in a God who loves me and accepts me.
I wonder if people were able to get straight to the heart - the wine - they'd be a lot more keen to get involved? Instead we force onto them a whole load of stuff about what it means to be a Christian, most of which isn't helpful or even important.
I do agree with Tim and Jo, I think that people are finding community in other places. I regularly post on the message board of a brilliant parenting website. The girls there are helpful, kind and really look out for each other. It's a real community, and you can tell just from reading a few posts that people really rely on the friendships they've made there (especially important for mums stuck at home trying to make sense of an alien little creature that's suddenly landed in the house!)
Is St Pixels the same sort of community, Jo?
Posted anonymously just so that those unfamiliar with me can't easily trace me.
Re: St Pixels
I spent quite a bit of time on there (where I bumped into Jo!)
It's OK, some lovely individuals - though the website navigation is dire, and you have no control over content of your 'blog' once posted. I have requested deletion of my content, but haven't checked on it.
There seems to be a lack of drive for people to meet in real life at St Pixels. Let's have community, but keep it a distance is my general impression.
Try suggesting meet ups and there's limited enthusiasm - unless it involves an international contingent staying at an expensive retreat centre. We wanted to go along for the day, but the organisers didn't quite get we wanted to take our own packed lunch (as opposed to one provided), and avoid paying £80 + (inc fuel) for a day outing. Alternative Christian communities also = opportunity to make a lot of money.
It also seems to focus around a few key celebrity posters who have large enough personalities and high enough output to warrant attention. No doubt it works for some, but my experience of Christian online communities is on the more negative side of mixed. If you have any element of doubt, then there are individuals ready to break a bruised reed or extinguish a struggling flame.
You've got to have the real person element to some degree or other. Well, I have, in my experience.
The trust shown me by my vicar, and the few contacts / friends at SofaChurch are what keep me hanging on at trying to trust some sort of Christian group. I'm coming along, but still quite wobbly at times (though you may not see it). I have a passionate faith in a caring, real God, but that is often outbalanced by a near complete lack of faith in groups of Christians - often known as 'The Church'.
Hmm, St Pixels. Have to echo the words of Anonymous. It was great for me when I had no voice all those months... could have fellowship through typing rather then speaking!!! Some lovely encouraging personalities around, although if you happen to be having a bit of 'wobble' it can get a bit intimidating...eek!! Think it's good though for those folk who find it nearly impossible to attend a conventional church ie. housebound, terminally ill etc.
But IMO nothing beats real face-to-face stuff.
To be honest I'm literally clinging onto things with the skin of my teeth at the mo, and if it wasn't for some fantastic folk at SofaChurch and Christchurch (with their encouragment and ability to keep me sane!!!!) I think I'd probably jack all this 'church' stuff in. But then Jesus never said it was going to be easy... ho hum!!
Do you know, I'd never have guessed that, Jo? Just as I'd never have known that anonymous was 'wobbling' at all.
I know I'm not at SofaChurch meetings (so I don't know that you don't) but might it be worth having a more open sharing 'how are you doing?' kind of time occasionally? I know we don't want to be a naval-gazing group, but neither do we want to be a group of people who have real needs and issues that aren't being addressed.
Wonder what Tim and Andy think, as our leading chap types? (sorry - this is rather off-subject now...)
Sorry, folks. Didn't mean to use this post to have moan... as you can see I deleted my first attempt!! Just that the 'middle bit' and CofE in general is doing my head in at the mo. They seem so preoccupied with tonnes of religeous nonsense and completely lost touch with the needs of ordinary people... ***scream very loudly in frustration*** And I'm at a point of simply wanting to walk away and leave them to it... but I can't because I love Jesus and all the 'ordinary people' far too much!!!
might it be worth having a more open sharing 'how are you doing?' kind of time occasionally?
Not sure if the main meeting is the place, or not - but I agree it should be an important element somewhere. No enforced awkward, "now we'll all share" - but when it's natural to do so. Manufactured 'community' is probably worse than none at all!
I have despaired of having no close friends or confidants. Not since 1992 when I left home and left my circle of friends have I had a a core of friends where I could just be and meet up very easily for a lark, laugh, trip to the cinema, talk, moan about life over a meal at Burger King etc. (No, I'm not looking for a sob story either!).
Life is extraordinarily lonely, even with the busy-ness of family life.
This year has seen probably the greatest difficulties we have faced on a range of issues - but there has been *nowhere* and *no one* with whom to talk about it or just let off steam. Thankfully I think things are now settled / settling.
Every Christian meeting /service I go to (inc. SofaChurch) is geared to what we *do* at the meeting, instead of being geared for those who seek community with that group. Yes it's relevant culturally (and by 'eck am I grateful for that Andy & Suse) - but the chatty friendship support bits are marginalised to the start and end of the main 'business'.
A noted Self Help organisation (and no, I don't have that problem) has most of its meetings geared around a three minute reading or so from their Big Book. Then the remainder of the meeting is people talking about their feelings, experiences, and where they're at in relation to the bit that's been read.
All humbly acknowledge they'd be lost to their common enemy without deference to their Higher Power.
The meeting isn't about what you do at the meeting, but it's about those who come to it - who speak, participate, remain silent, take in - as needs.
If you want to see spiritual community in action, with people coming in being themselves at whatever point in their journey, not being judged or expelled because they've struggled or 'failed', this is a fine example.
I guess I quite like the gist of the Quaker approach of having meetings of silence, and no one says anything unless they are moved to do so. Just move that on a slightly more pro-active step - don't say / do things just because you feel that's what should be done when you get together.
We're human beings, not human doings. We're so busy doing that we stop being.
Ooer, I've rambled a bit.
Yeah, as I get older I quite like the 'Quaker' approach too... a reading/contemplation then the space for folk to respond/not respond as they so wish. There's no reason why this couldn't be culturally relevent too using music, film clips, artwork, visual aids etc.
How would folk feel about having opportunties to thrash out the challenges of following Jesus in the 'everyday' stuff... sharing/supporting eachother etc? I don't mean indepth, navel analysing necessarily, just trying to make sense of how to be 'real' and 'genuine' in our relationships with God, eachother and the folk we meet each day.
Aw, Tim, I couldn't not reply to that. I'm so sorry to hear that life is sometimes lonely - that sucks. It sounds like you had a good group of friends at home? I think perhaps I don't miss that because I've never really had friends coming out of my ears. Getting married was the best thing to happen to me, as I suddenly had a life and companionship (and inherited Andy's friends!)
I agree that even (even!) SofaChurch is a 'doing' meeting rather than a 'being' one. If that's something that we need to think about changing, let's do it. It's everyone's group, we can make it whatever we want. Have a think about what would scratch where you itch, as it were.
It is tricky to maintain friendships in the bustle of family/kids/commitments etc but perhaps our day out/weekend away plan might be a step in the right direction - plenty of time to just be with each other, outside of issues and discussion.
"It sounds like you had a good group of friends at home?"
Just a circle of lads with whom you could be daft with and one you're OK.
"I've never really had friends coming out of my ears."
Know that feeling - I was always too different or bright or different taste in music to be 'in'.
"I suddenly had a life and companionship (and inherited Andy's friends!)"
Helen's friends are nearly all other mums or online with interests a million miles from mine. Finding commonality apart from children, a house, and faith expressed differently has been a long time coming.
I agree that even (even!) SofaChurch is a 'doing' meeting rather than a 'being' one. If that's something that we need to think about changing, let's do it. It's everyone's group, we can make it whatever we want. Have a think about what would scratch where you itch, as it were.
I was thinking over making lunch, and bashing out some Keith Green and a few choruses on the piano (scarily, I'm starting to enjoy them again you know... I extensively raided the SofaChurch library last week ;o) ) and wondered if it was fair or right to expect one get together to do so much? Perhaps there should be a disclaimer that it is "only part of a balanced Church diet"?.
Part of the idea for the rolling four-weekly SofaChurch meeting structure was to try and create a more mixed diet - the fourth Thursday 'creative worship' evening aims to leave a lot of space for general discussion while we get on with whatever we are doing. But I guess that only works if you can get to all of the meetings to get the balanced diet, which I realise is difficult for many - I think we need to leave is so that irregular attenders can slot in whenever they come. So in conclusion... I don't have one actually!
Conclusion: probably proceed as was - but when reasonable have other meetings and get togethers.
Every church I have ever been to has been based on Sunday morning relationships (unless inc. the enforced housegroup prayer / Bible Study / Praise session on Tuesday evenings!).
Crazy as it sounds, esp coming from me, the idea of a more explicit Christian meeting - a chorus / hymn jamming session and scratching our heads over Bible passages, talking about God's goodness etc - is actually quite appealing.
Many of us are from that background, and for one reason or another either left or were removed from it. I'm confident that we all benefitted from it somehow - so how can we do the same but do it differently?
That's the tricky thing! I wonder if it would need to be like us with Kitty: she's got a dairy allergy and as she gets older, we'll need to gradually re-introduce dairy foods to see how she reacts to them. Perhaps we need to introduce a bit of prayer one week, a song to listen to the next, adding things bit by bit, to see how they go down, how comfortable people are with it all.
I did wonder if we hadn't thrown the baby out with the bath water in deciding not to have any church-type bits at all. But then at the start, we were hoping SofaChurch would be a very un-cringey, seeker-friendly place, so prayer and singing seemed a bit culturally odd. But since the group seems to be more of a group for people who are a bit disillusioned with mainstream church, maybe we should re-think.
The one week that I led the meeting ('Slow Club'), I had a time of quiet for prayer at the end, and when I was the only one to pray out loud, I assumed it hadn't gone down very well.
The other option would be to keep SofaChurch as more of a discussion/friendship group and plan for your Cafe Church to have more of a 'service' flavour..? If it were on a different night, folks could potentially go to both.
The one week that I led the meeting ('Slow Club'), I had a time of quiet for prayer at the end, and when I was the only one to pray out loud, I assumed it hadn't gone down very well.
Sorry - I wasn't there that week, and being early on perhaps we were all still adjusting to one another?
The other option would be to keep SofaChurch as more of a discussion/friendship group and plan for your Cafe Church to have more of a 'service' flavour..? If it were on a different night, folks could potentially go to both.
I think there lies part of the solution - or at least trying it...?
Well folks, glad I dediced to join you online. "The Middle Bit" certainly seems to have triggered a few thoughts!!
I just worry about our young folk. I know from our own 3 boys that they love church and all that they're involved with. However, when they reach the age for them to leave our Sunday School or 'Y' Zone as we call it, I feel sure that they will not naturally progress to the church services as most of our older members would asume they would or should. I know first hand that there would be nothing there most Sundays that they could relate to in that generally it is all old fashioned hymns played on an organ with a sermon that would mean nothing to them. Our eldest son is 19 and still goes into the Sunday School as do other older teenagers. We even have a couple of 20 year olds in there when they are home from university.
I have found myself over the last 12 months or so picking and choosing which Sundays I attend depending on who is preaching. If I don't attend, I walk with our dog over fields and find myself much more fulfilled spiritually and closer to God than I would have done at church.
I know that our young folk want an alternative to the traditional church as do lots of other ages also. They started Re:Generation themselves because of this and it seems to work. However, it doesn't just seem to work for our young folk. We have some 40s, 50s, 60s and even a 77 year old, so what does it tell us?
I know you say Suzie that you would value Kitty being brought up in a traditional style church where folk know her and love and in my experience yes that works while they are little and cute. But when they reach teenage years and become louder and have their own opinions and ways of expressing there love for Jesus it becomes and issue with a lot of older folk. There a some elderly folk in our church who love the young ones dearly, but there are also a good few who will deliberately keep away if the youth group are participating in the service.
Even for me, there a only maybe 2 or 3 people at church that I know would truely care about me if I was troubled or in need. A few years ago, my husband Steve had a heart attack completely out of the blue. The boys and I were falling apart and our main support and care came from outside the church except from a couple of folk.
I am more invloved with church than Steve is in that I work a lot with our young folk. Steve will do his bit in things like he's treasurer for the Sunday School and did a stint as Child Protection Officer. He doesn't attend church as often as me because of work commitments as a Paramedic. I find myself telling him who is "on" on the Sundays he is available to join us as I know that if he were there on many occasions, he would come away even more disillusioned than he already is. Steve says he gets more help with his faith after quiet chats, just the two of us and even from Re:Generation. Again, the oposite ends of the scales. No "middle bit"!!
I invite our young folk to our house as an alternative to our Friday youth group sometimes - film and pizza, that type of thing. They prove to be wonderful nights with lots of chat afterwards on all manner of topics from faith to school, college and home. They also play football and hide and seek in the garden and ruin my plants !!!! hmmm.
I've suggested that they may like to do this on a "regular, irregular" basis and the idea's gone down really well. No God stuff unless they want it. But just to chat over anything they want to. Also maybe an early morning breakfast, where they can get together once in a while and share a meal and maybe pray together before school or college. Again they are enthusiastic.
Sorry to go on, but my point is that I feel that whatever age we are, we all need something outside the mainstreem church service. Somewhere loud and vibrant, but also the quiet chatty times too to build true friendships.
I feel that those of us that are able should be working towards accomodating those needs and I think that with all you are doing with Sofa Church is to be applauded.
I would love to be able to help with the set up of the Cafe church if I'm able. Don't know if you know what I do, but I have a shop in Crewe that sells hot and cold sandwiches, cakes, pies, drinks etc, so have a bit of expeience in that sort of field. Maybe I could put you in touch with cheap suppliers or advise on Environmental Health Regulations etc. Just a thought. Don't want to push in, but if I can help let me know. I had thought of doing the same type of thing last year but time just wouldn't allow. I'd heard about a redundant cafe above the law courts that apparently the council would let free of charge as they couldn't do anything with. I didn't explore it though.
Well folks, I'm really glad to get all that off my chest. You see talking does help. Thanks.
Hey, you're back Mandy - hooray! (This has been the most popular SofaChurch thread so far - see what you've started? ;o))
I totally see where you're coming from re. your boys. (Though I think they're all still pretty cute - shame your congregation can't see that they're the same lovely little boys underneath the teenage exteriors) I can see that once Kitty's a teen, she may not be too happy going to a quieter church. I hope I'd be happy for her to go to a more lively one, if that's what she wanted (Or not go at all? Eek.)
I'm surprised your lads haven't upped and gone to West Street before now. But all credit to them, especially Chris, for not leaving, but trying to change the situation.
19/20 is kind of old to still be at Sunday School. But if they get more from it than the sermons... Have they actually heard enough sermons to get an idea that they wouldn't enjoy them? We were surprised when Andy preached at North Street when they all trooped out.
It sounds like your oldies there are less 'young at heart' than ours are. Ours seem up for change, new ideas, and the encouragement we got when starting SofaChurch was just brilliant.
I am so thrilled for you boys, Mandy, and for the encouragement you are being to the young people at your church. And I get so excited too when I hear about the youthwork that Susie and Andy are involved with too.
However, I feel ashamed to admit that due to our own struggles with 'church', our 3 kids have not exactly had an easy time of things. The eldest two witnessed first-hand some yucky stuff in the name of 'church' and, not surprisingly, it has left them feeling very confused and not a little cautious too. My youngest is simply confused!!!
But God has been sooooo good, and it thrills me to know that underneath all their insecurities and doubts, they each have a deep love for the Lord Jesus.
BUT, now in their late teens (and my eldest nearly 21) they feel extremely 'disconnected' with what contemporary church is offering them (including West Street, I'm afraid :o() They see little relation to the day-to-day world they live in and what they know about the Bible and Jesus' life, with what the 'middle bit' is offering. They want to experience Jesus in a community that is culturally relevant and something they can invite their mates along to without cringing!!!!! Sound familiar??!!!!!!
Even going to any form of Christian meeting these days in quite a big thing for them. This makes us really sad, as Andy and myself had such a fab time in our teen years and we look back on so many precious opportunities to really thrash out the nitty-gritty of what being a Christian is all about plus all the fun we had too.
But then I think whatever age you are, whatever background or previous experiences, we are in essence all looking for the same thing: something that is 'real' and relevant to where we are in our relationship with God, where we are loved, accepted and encouraged whatever.
I am so very grateful for all the fantastic bods I've met in recent months... it is so exciting to be making this journey into a 'new land' together.... thank you!
I've just started reading a very interesting book called 'What would Jesus deconstruct?'. I want to share this passage - it seems relevant to our discussion.
The early church is a lot like the characters in the hit TV series Lost - the title is appropriate! - waiting to be "saved"... At first, the survivors hang around on the beach waiting to get "picked up" (in a cloud, St. Paul said). After a while, they conclude that the rescue is not going to happen anytime soon and so they reluctantly decide to dig in and prepare for the long haul. Hence the existence of the church is provisional - like a long term substitute teacher - praying for the kingdom, whose coming Jesus announced and which everyone was expecting would come sometime soon. But this coming was deferred, and the church occupies the space of the deferral between the two comings. In the meantime, and it always is the meantime for the church, the church is supposed to do the best it can to bring the kingdom about in itself, here on earth, in a process of incessant self renewal or auto-deconstruction, while not setting itself up as a bunch of kings or princes.
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