In a future SofaChurch meeting, we'll be watching and discussing the latest video from Dans le Sac vs. Scroobius Pip: 'Letter to man from God'. Have a look ahead of time and let us know what you make of it...
Very much "The Streets". Nice one. I like the message, but I do take issue with the bit where God says "I didn't know"... rather rattles the idea of omniscience of God.
I'm not going to defend the theology of the whole song, but I'm not worried about the line that you two mentioned, "I gave you all space to grow and, in your own way, space to develop. I didn't know that such development would cause rifts and jealousy."
I think that God did leave us free to go off as we wanted to, and he might well have not foreseen the sort of things we have been up to. As an example, before the flood God regretted making people because of the evil things that they did.
Its perhaps a topic we can all discuss, but it can be argued that God was learning how to deal with people throughout the Old Testament. Why did he bother with all the laws and commandments if he knew that that approach wouldn't work?
Hmmmmn. Yes. It's the case of does God *really* know it all and the endless permutations of our interactions, and so this 'ignorance' of how things would end up is just divine play acting (then God's a bit of a fraud) - OR does our understanding of the omniscience of God need a little more qualification?
But are you saying that God cannot/does not want to say anything more to us since then?
The world is a very different place to when the books of the Bible were written, we know a lot more, we've invented a lot of stuff and done a lot of things. Is God not allowed to comment on these?
Of course we need to judge potential modern day prophets about what we know of the character of God revealed in the Bible, but I think that God is still speaking through prophets.
I'm sorry but I'm not convinced that many people who leave comments on this website really do believe that the Bible is inspired of God.
There seems, for example, to be a great deal of picking and choosing what one chooses to believe.
Indeed, the particular cultural and social situations in Scripture are quite removed from our own circumstances today. That can make some aspects of Scripture quite difficult to interpret - I would accept that.
However, this does not take away from the clear central message of the Bible that Jesus Christ came into the world to save repentant sinners.
Please confirm whom you believe that God is using to speak to us today.
There is a difference, I think, to believing that the Bible is 'inspired by God' in some way to believing that it was so closely dictated that every single part of it is literally correct.
For example, what about the parts that are plain wrong? For instance, in Psalm 75 God is quoted saying,
‘ When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm. ‘
The Earth does not have any pillars. Back then, people thought that it did have pillars, so it is natural that the authors would use that sort of language. They key point made in this passage is that God is with us in difficult times, it is not to be used to describe the Earth's structure. I am going to open up a (non-literal) can of worms now and say that I think this approach can and should be used to reconcile Genesis to evolution though natural selection. So yes, I'm afraid that there does need to be some picking and choosing as you put it. Or at least applying our brains to interpreting the Bible.
Incidentally, I half dispute your statement that the ' the clear central message of the Bible that Jesus Christ came into the world to save repentant sinners.'
I prefer Jesus' own mission claim:
‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.’
Jesus came to redeem the world, not just a few 'repentant sinners'.
You finished by asking who I believe that God is using to speak to us today. I wouldn't know where to start... God speaks through all manner of things and people all of the time. In the 'Modern Day Prophets' series we looked at some unlikely candidates of the title of prophet, and generally thought that it fitted in each case. So, to start a long long and every growing list: Banksy, Scroobious Pip, Mr Benn, Borat.
Gunkle It's great to have you dialoguing with us, but I'm really concerned as to the intolerant & negative tone of many of your posts.
When you say that we pick & choose what bits of the Bible we believe, the reality is that none of us approaches the Bible cold and completely innocent - we are already interpreting it through our experiences & backgrounds. To pretend otherwise is simply not to be congruent & real.
Even the most conservative Christians pick & choose - for example do you banish women who are menstruating or how do you deal with Mildew?!!
Many Christians (let's be frank especially conservative evangelicals) have their view of the Bible determined by modernity than actually how it was intended i.e. focussing on progress & all mysteries can be solved & explained The Bible is NOT a manual with answers to all of life's questions - this is actually one of the earliest heresies dating back to the 3rd century AD and was dealt with at the Council of Nicaea amongst other places. To believe it is is actually to restrict it and thereby insult it, as the Bible is so much more...
By posting in the way you do, you show disrespect to the fact we are a group of people trying to work out what it means to follow God in the 21st century - and this includes how we relate the Bible to our lives today. Some of your posts have actually been offensive with no prospect of constructive dialogue GeoffE
12 comments:
Very much "The Streets". Nice one. I like the message, but I do take issue with the bit where God says "I didn't know"... rather rattles the idea of omniscience of God.
Yes, good point!
I thought it was quite a powerful song. I remember liking Joan Osborne's 'One of Us' in the same way a few years ago.
That's the bit that leapt out at me too!Will need to look at it again a couple of times to catch all the lyrics.
You can read the lyrics here.
I'm not going to defend the theology of the whole song, but I'm not worried about the line that you two mentioned, "I gave you all space to grow and, in your own way, space to develop. I didn't know that such development would cause rifts and jealousy."
I think that God did leave us free to go off as we wanted to, and he might well have not foreseen the sort of things we have been up to. As an example, before the flood God regretted making people because of the evil things that they did.
Its perhaps a topic we can all discuss, but it can be argued that God was learning how to deal with people throughout the Old Testament. Why did he bother with all the laws and commandments if he knew that that approach wouldn't work?
Where have you been Claire? We miss you :o( (Plus, I still need to take your pic for the newsletter!) See you Thursday?
Hmmmmn. Yes. It's the case of does God *really* know it all and the endless permutations of our interactions, and so this 'ignorance' of how things would end up is just divine play acting (then God's a bit of a fraud) - OR does our understanding of the omniscience of God need a little more qualification?
Should be with you this week.Have ahd a yucky cold I didn't want to share with everyone.Looking forward to the games evening.
I have a letter to man from God. Its called the Bible.
Gunkle - sure, of course. We take that as read.
But are you saying that God cannot/does not want to say anything more to us since then?
The world is a very different place to when the books of the Bible were written, we know a lot more, we've invented a lot of stuff and done a lot of things. Is God not allowed to comment on these?
Of course we need to judge potential modern day prophets about what we know of the character of God revealed in the Bible, but I think that God is still speaking through prophets.
Andy
I'm sorry but I'm not convinced that many people who leave comments on this website really do believe that the Bible is inspired of God.
There seems, for example, to be a great deal of picking and choosing what one chooses to believe.
Indeed, the particular cultural and social situations in Scripture are quite removed from our own circumstances today. That can make some aspects of Scripture quite difficult to interpret - I would accept that.
However, this does not take away from the clear central message of the Bible that Jesus Christ came into the world to save repentant sinners.
Please confirm whom you believe that God is using to speak to us today.
There is a difference, I think, to believing that the Bible is 'inspired by God' in some way to believing that it was so closely dictated that every single part of it is literally correct.
For example, what about the parts that are plain wrong? For instance, in Psalm 75 God is quoted saying,
‘ When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm. ‘
The Earth does not have any pillars. Back then, people thought that it did have pillars, so it is natural that the authors would use that sort of language. They key point made in this passage is that God is with us in difficult times, it is not to be used to describe the Earth's structure. I am going to open up a (non-literal) can of worms now and say that I think this approach can and should be used to reconcile Genesis to evolution though natural selection. So yes, I'm afraid that there does need to be some picking and choosing as you put it. Or at least applying our brains to interpreting the Bible.
Incidentally, I half dispute your statement that the
' the clear central message of the Bible that Jesus Christ came into the world to save repentant sinners.'
I prefer Jesus' own mission claim:
‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.’
Jesus came to redeem the world, not just a few 'repentant sinners'.
You finished by asking who I believe that God is using to speak to us today. I wouldn't know where to start... God speaks through all manner of things and people all of the time. In the 'Modern Day Prophets' series we looked at some unlikely candidates of the title of prophet, and generally thought that it fitted in each case. So, to start a long long and every growing list: Banksy, Scroobious Pip, Mr Benn, Borat.
Gunkle
It's great to have you dialoguing with us, but I'm really concerned as to the intolerant & negative tone of many of your posts.
When you say that we pick & choose what bits of the Bible we believe, the reality is that none of us approaches the Bible cold and completely innocent - we are already interpreting it through our experiences & backgrounds. To pretend otherwise is simply not to be congruent & real.
Even the most conservative Christians pick & choose - for example do you banish women who are menstruating or how do you deal with Mildew?!!
Many Christians (let's be frank especially conservative evangelicals) have their view of the Bible determined by modernity than actually how it was intended i.e. focussing on progress & all mysteries can be solved & explained
The Bible is NOT a manual with answers to all of life's questions - this is actually one of the earliest heresies dating back to the 3rd century AD and was dealt with at the Council of Nicaea amongst other places. To believe it is is actually to restrict it and thereby insult it, as the Bible is so much more...
By posting in the way you do, you show disrespect to the fact we are a group of people trying to work out what it means to follow God in the 21st century - and this includes how we relate the Bible to our lives today. Some of your posts have actually been offensive with no prospect of constructive dialogue
GeoffE
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